[Law] Why isn't this offisde under 10m law ?

Phil E


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Kicked by Black.
Green player puts his arms in the air to charge down and the ball is deflected.
At that point all the black players are onside...play on.

It did look wrong, but I believe the referee got it right. Although I don't think he was sure to start with, as the ball passes him he just walks after it even after the player collects it and runs up-field. There is a pause before he runs after him as if he is thinking it through.

charge down.jpg
 
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didds

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Yeagh - Im with PhilE. Though I can fully understand some other viewpoint as the alws dont actually define what a charge down is. I(t does of course "look wrong" - and TBH any player in itoje's position would risk the PK anyway even if unsure themselves.

didds
 

Dickie E


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Aussie rules use the term "touched in flight" which covers all intentional contact after a kick apart from trying to catch the ball as it alights. I reckon that's what I'd use to rule on "downtown" offside
 

crossref


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That clarification doesnt seem right to me ,

.. I think the definition of a handoff is too strict
.. the 10m Law is about being within 10m of where the ball lands or is caught, but they keep talking about being 10m from the kick


(Aside for me this incident was a chargedown, the 10m law did not apply and try was good)
 
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Ian_Cook


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Aussie rules use the term "touched in flight" which covers all intentional contact after a kick apart from trying to catch the ball as it alights. I reckon that's what I'd use to rule on "downtown" offside

Yep, I agree.

In rugby (both codes) its not uncommon to hear referees yell "touched" to let all players know that downfield players don't have to retire and are free to play the ball.

That clarification doesnt seem right to me ,

.. the 10m Law is about being within 10m of where the ball lands or is caught, but they keep talking about being 10m from the kick

Nor me. I think they misconstrued the ARU's question - their answer was unrelated to what the ARU were asking.
 

Not Kurt Weaver


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Yeagh - Im with PhilE. Though I can fully understand some other viewpoint as the alws dont actually define what a charge down is.

11 Knock-on or throw forward
KNOCK-ON
5.The ball is not knocked-on, and play continues, if.

a. A player knocks the ball forward immediately after an opponent has kicked it (charge down).

.............. a charge down is a type of knock on according to this law, it is only description in law..........

There is also a picture showing downward movement of the ball, hence a "chargedown"

I think we are screwed, all we have is precedence
 

didds

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yeah get that... but... if A kicks the ball, B jumps and half blocks it so it changes direction significantly, goes down but behind B ... that hasnt gone forwards... but is it a charge down? If a CD requires the ball to go forward then no. But it significantly altered the glight of the ball nonetheless etc
 

Not Kurt Weaver


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yeah get that... but... if A kicks the ball, B jumps and half blocks it so it changes direction significantly, goes down but behind B ... that hasnt gone forwards... but is it a charge down? If a CD requires the ball to go forward then no. But it significantly altered the glight of the ball nonetheless etc

That is the rub.

According to the applicable law and not to tradition, the 10m law applies

4.An offside player may be penalised, if that player:

a.Interferes with play; or

b. Moves forwards towards the ball; or

c. Was in front of a team-mate who kicked the ball and fails to retire immediately behind an onside team-mate or an imaginary line across the field 10 metres on that player’s side from where the ball is caught or lands, even if it hits a goal post or crossbar first. If this involves more than one player, then the player closest to where the ball lands or is caught is the one penalised. This is known as the 10-metre law and still applies if the ball touches or is played by an opponent but not when the kick is charged down.



I'd win the argument in a court of law, but not in court of old grumpy refs
 

CrouchTPEngage


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Thanks for all inputs so far !
There seems a general acceptance that the law should be re-written.
I'm no legal expert, but let's see if I can have a version 0.1....

Definitions : Add a definition of a charge-down :
A charge-down occurs when a defending player approaches an opposing kicker with an intent to deflect the path of the kicked-ball after it has been propelled by the kicker. The defender must have touched the ball and the ball may be deflected in any direction (including no discernible change in direction ). The blocker must have made contact with the kicked-ball close the the kicker.
A charge-down is not a knock-on

Law 10.4 c :
Was in front of a team-mate who kicked the ball and fails to retire immediately behind an onside team-mate or an imaginary line across the field 10 metres on that player’s side from where the ball is caught or lands, even if it hits a goal post or crossbar first. If this involves more than one player, then the player closest to where the ball lands or is caught is the one penalised. This is known as the 10-metre law and still applies if the ball is touched by an opponent (who is nearer to the place of ball-landing than the place of the kick) but not when the kick is touched as part of a charge-down.

Sanction: The non-offending team can choose either:
<blah blah>

Nope. That's not quite what I was after,either. I need help here, people !
Anyone good at writing laws ?
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart


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Nope. That's not quite what I was after,either. I need help here, people !
Anyone good at writing laws ?

There used to be a 15 year old from Dublin who wrote laws but I suspect he/she's at least 19 now and has a proper job.
 

tim White


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A charge down is an attempt by a player to block or deflect an opponent's kick by intentional touching the ball. Once touched by an opponent all the kicker's team ahead of the kicker are not offside. If the ball is not caught but merely deflected behind the opponent no player is offside- Play on.
 
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crossref


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A charge down is an attempt by a player to block or deflect an opponent's kick by intentional touching the ball. Once touched by an opponent all the kicker's team ahead of the kicker are not offside. If the ball is not caught but merely deflected behind the opponent no player is offside- Play on.

So looking at 10.4.ç. Give an example of the ball being played (but not charged down) what would that look like ?
 

didds

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A charge down is an attempt by a player to block or deflect an opponent's kick by intentional touching the ball. Once touched by an opponent all the kicker's team ahead of the kicker are not offside. If the ball is not caught but merely deflected behind the opponent no player is offside- Play on.

but a charge down isnt caught.. so what's the distinction?



didds
 

Not Kurt Weaver


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Nope. That's not quite what I was after,either. I need help here, people !
Anyone good at writing laws ?

A charge down is an attempt by a player to block or deflect an opponent's kick by intentional touching the ball. Once touched by an opponent all the kicker's team ahead of the kicker are not offside. If the ball is not caught but merely deflected behind the opponent no player is offside- Play on.

TW was your post a response to CTPE request for help?
 

Jolly Roger


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“Clarification of the designated members of the Rugby Committee
1. The act of a charge down is one where an opposition player not in possession of the ball approaches a kicker at close quarters and makes an attempt to block the kick. In such circumstances players in front of the kicker who are within 10 metres of the kick are not liable to penalty wherever the ball lands.
2. If the ball is not charged down but is played or touches an opposition player and a player from the kicker’s side is within the 10 metre area in front of the kick that player is liable to penalty in accordance with Law 11.4(f).”

I think that when the Rugby Committee says “within 10m of the kick” and “within the 10m area in front of the kick” they are referring to where the ball lands, i.e. where it was kicked to not where it was kicked from. As there is nothing in law that refers to the area 10m in front of the kicker other than at a penalty.

So what they are saying is that an attempted charge down where contact is made with the ball constitutes a charge down. Yes, this should be within the Definition section. Therefore, all players are put onside and the try in OP stands.

The rewrite of the laws is going to drive me away from refereeing. It was supposed to simplify but has created so much confusion amongst players and referees alike.
 

OB..


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I've looked back at the laws to see what was said before they were "simplified". They used the phrase "waiting to play the ball", which was clearly not the case here. There used to be 7 paragraphs on the 10 Metre Law - now there is just one.

For me the essence of a charge down is that the ball stops going upfield. It also needs to be fairly close; the defender tries to block the ball but has no realistic chance to avoid a potential knock-on.

That analysis would allow the try.
 
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crossref


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I don't think you can blame this on the rewrite .. it was unclear before, it's still unclearly written
 

Jz558


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So it boils down to whether or not the referee thinks that touching the ball in flight constitutes a charge down. If yes then the try is legal, if not then he's offside. What would happen if after touching the ball in flight in a similar manner it had rebounded off the post and he'd picked it up and scored :biggrin:
 

chbg


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So it boils down to whether or not the referee thinks that touching the ball in flight constitutes a charge down. If yes then the try is legal, if not then he's offside. What would happen if after touching the ball in flight in a similar manner it had rebounded off the post and he'd picked it up and scored :biggrin:

No difference, as I feel that you know. Although may it depend on which set of goalposts?
 

Dickie E


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For me the essence of a charge down is that the ball stops going upfield.

That analysis would allow the try.

aren't those 2 statements contradictory?
 
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