Wind assisted forward pass

wrighty


ELRA/Club Referee
Joined
Aug 29, 2009
Messages
81
Post Likes
0
Reds attacking, gale force wind behind, red 12 releases ball legally, ie not towards the opponents dead ball line.The deliberately floated high pass then is blown towards his opponents dead ball line and it is caught by his winger at least 5metres ahead !Forward pass or play on ?
 

wrighty


ELRA/Club Referee
Joined
Aug 29, 2009
Messages
81
Post Likes
0
Cheers Browner, that's what I would have done, just checking as it's going to be a windy one !
 

Camquin

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2011
Messages
1,601
Post Likes
278
Of course if you allow that you have to allow the team with the windin their face to throw into a line out straight and have the wind take the ball into their scrum half's hands.

And what about the restart that crosses the 10 metre line but is blown back?

I don't care which way a referee chooses to interpret it - and I think you can sell both interpretations - as long as s/he is consistent across a match.
 

Dixie


Referees in England
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Messages
12,772
Post Likes
338
Of course if you allow that you have to allow the team with the windin their face to throw into a line out straight and have the wind take the ball into their scrum half's hands. Not at all. While the law technically requires the ball to be thrown along the LoT, the clear intention is that it should be catchable by either team above the LoT. My requirement in serious wind is that it is above the LoT when it becomes catchable.

And what about the restart that crosses the 10 metre line but is blown back? Covered in law. [LAWS]If the ball reaches the opponents’ 10-metre line or reaches the 10-metre line and is blown back, play continues.[/LAWS]

I don't care which way a referee chooses to interpret it - and I think you can sell both interpretations - as long as s/he is consistent across a match.
:chin:
 

andyscott


Referees in England
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Messages
3,117
Post Likes
55
Play on.

Its the direction the ball is passed.
 

Browner

Banned
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
6,000
Post Likes
270
So, on a very windy day [side - side wind] ............. do you go for a] a straight throw that will virtually always get blown off course .... or b] an adjusted throw that starts off noticeably towards one side but blows back & lands [is caught] near the middle of the lineout ? [LAWS] The player taking the throw-in must stand at the correct place. The player must not step into the field of play when the ball is thrown. The ball must be thrown straight, so that it travels at least 5 metres along the line of touch before it first touches the ground or touches or is touched by a player. [/LAWS] Obviously the Law wasn't written to consider wind. I accept that higher levels the ball is thrown hard, and deviation can be quite slight on front ball , so consider the question for lower levels/juniors
 
Last edited:

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,951
Post Likes
1,816
Of course if you allow that you have to allow the team with the windin their face to throw into a line out straight and have the wind take the ball into their scrum half's hands.
No you don't. I expect a credible effort to take the wind into account.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
19,729
Post Likes
2,245
So, on a very windy day [side - side wind] ............. do you go for a] a straight throw that will virtually always get blown off course .... or b] an adjusted throw that starts off noticeably towards one side but blows back & lands [is caught] near the middle of the lineout ? [LAWS] The player taking the throw-in must stand at the correct place. The player must not step into the field of play when the ball is thrown. The ball must be thrown straight, so that it travels at least 5 metres along the line of touch before it first touches the ground or touches or is touched by a player. [/LAWS] Obviously the Law wasn't written to consider wind. I accept that higher levels the ball is thrown hard, and deviation can be quite slight on front ball , so consider the question for lower levels/juniors

I want the ball to be caught in the gap between the two lines.
 

Ciaran Trainor


Referees in England
Joined
Jun 23, 2005
Messages
2,637
Post Likes
240
Location
Walney Island
Current Referee grade:
Level 7
two things
If it was a deliberate floated pass that the wind took forward, good thinking and well played that man for knowing his laws.
On a very windy day, which we get a lot up here I expect the ball to be over the middle at the 5M line for a line out. Most people can manage that, then in my experience no matter who gets the ball, attack or defence there is seldom a real advantage.
 

Browner

Banned
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
6,000
Post Likes
270
Looks like this is going to split opinion.... how do you set up a Poll ?
 

Camquin

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2011
Messages
1,601
Post Likes
278
One question if it is not a forward pass, what do you do when the passers team mate catches the ball 5m ahead of him and therefore offside in open play.

Under what dispensation is he not offside. The only one in the book is for a forward pass - but you have argued this does not apply.

Given it is not a deliberate forward pass, surely it is better to give the scrum for th forward pass than the penalty for offside.

Of course if you thing the passer deliberately foated the pass forward, then a penalty is correct.
 

chbg


Referees in England
Joined
May 15, 2009
Messages
1,296
Solutions
1
Post Likes
292
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
As long as the team-mate is behind the passer when he passed / let go of the ball, then he is never in front of a player who is carrying the ball, or in front of someone who last played the ball, at that time. Same as for a kick.
 

wrighty


ELRA/Club Referee
Joined
Aug 29, 2009
Messages
81
Post Likes
0
Chbg, yes.In my original scenario, the passer was legal, but knew what he was trying to do, the receiver was legal ie behind and also knew it was on, as if a kick.I would still go for the play on, same as if it were from a kick or charge down, as long as I was happy he started behind.
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,951
Post Likes
1,816
As long as the team-mate is behind the passer when he passed / let go of the ball, then he is never in front of a player who is carrying the ball, or in front of someone who last played the ball, at that time. Same as for a kick.
That illustrates another infelicity in the wording of the Laws. The definition fails to specify the timing: [LAWS]In general play a player is offside if the player is in front of a team-mate who is carrying the ball, or in front of a team-mate who last played the ball.
[/LAWS]Any player coming past the kicker to chase the kick is then in front of him.
 

Camquin

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2011
Messages
1,601
Post Likes
278
Which is why the late charge on the kicker has the double penalty as not only is it dangerous, it prevents them from putting their team mates on side - at least that was Derek Robinson's explanation.

11.2 (c) permits someone onside at the time of a kick to chase the ball - and to put those in front of them onside.
The offisde line becomes whichever player who was onside at the time of the kick makes most ground forward.

But it only applies to kicks, as passes are backwards and the recipient is therefore onside and forms the new offside line.
 

RobLev

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Messages
2,170
Post Likes
244
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
Which is why the late charge on the kicker has the double penalty as not only is it dangerous, it prevents them from putting their team mates on side - at least that was Derek Robinson's explanation.

11.2 (c) permits someone onside at the time of a kick to chase the ball - and to put those in front of them onside.
The offisde line becomes whichever player who was onside at the time of the kick makes most ground forward.

But it only applies to kicks, as passes are backwards and the recipient is therefore onside and forms the new offside line.

At what point in time do you say that the pass-recipient becomes offside? Because at the time the ball is played by the passer, the recipient is onside. We aren't told that the recipient ever overtakes the passer; so when does he become offside?

Bear in mind that by your interpretation, the "team-mate who was level with or behind the kicker when (or after) the ball was kicked" referred to in 11.2(c) is himself offside even while putting his team-mates onside (because ex hypothesi he has overtaken the kicker - otherwise the kicker would be the one who is putting them onside).
 

Camquin

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2011
Messages
1,601
Post Likes
278
As passing is not kicking - as soon as he is ahead of the last person on his side who played the ball, and he must retire.
He is allowed to be offside provided he does not interfere with play - but if he handles the ball while offside penalty every time.

The proof that he is offside is the fact that there is an exception for the recipient of an unintentional forward pass.
If he would not otherwise offside why would there be a need for that exception.

Frankly I am beginning to think it would be simpler to abolish the forward pass and knock on and simply have the offside law - no need to worry about momentum or angle of hands or wind, simply judge if the recipient is on or offside and if offside penalise.

Camquin
 
Top