wrong team throws in line out!

wrighty


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Happened to me today and resulted in a try for the team that incorrectly threw in.It was only after I had awarded the try and the kicker was lining up his conversion, that a member of the other team brought it to my attention.I realised a mistake had been made and acknowledged it , but as I had awarded the try it had to stand, luckily it didn't effect the result !Was it a correct decision ?
 

menace


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How did you get the wrong thrower? Did TJ give you wrong signal of who was to throw in? Why didn't the 'correct' team not alert you/complain when the 'wrong' hooker stood there ready to throw? Was it clear and obvious who took it out, or was there some doubt as to who took it out?

If you realised your mistake, I think allowing the try and conversion perpetuates your error. I would have been inclined to take it back to fix that error and sheepishly begged for forgiveness. You're only human. Shit happens.
 

Dickie E


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If you realised your mistake, I think allowing the try and conversion perpetuates your error. I would have been inclined to take it back to fix that error and sheepishly begged for forgiveness.

What, then, is the point of no return? Try, conversion, restart, next stoppage, ...?
 

wrighty


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No one noticed at the time!School match, their TJ and coach on that side !Mind you as an ex hooker, I've done it myself on numerous occasions !Still would like a clarification in Law, as I treated it the same as if a team had been playing with 16 men, before it was spotted.
 

leaguerefaus


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I have no idea of a law book reference, but I was of the opinion that once a try is awarded in RU, it can only be taken away if previous foul play is reported.
 

menace


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What, then, is the point of no return? Try, conversion, restart, next stoppage, ...?

Probably about the time the spectators stop fighting or have stopped yelling abuse at you for your f@ck up!

Doesn't have to be a timed or event driven thing?
Apply common sense...manage it...whatever feels right. There is a window there that you know you can fix an error...you may choose to ignore it.
There are too many variables of this situation that we don't know to apply a hard and fast rule. A bit like playing advantage!
 
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Ian_Cook


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Happened to me today and resulted in a try for the team that incorrectly threw in.It was only after I had awarded the try and the kicker was lining up his conversion, that a member of the other team brought it to my attention.I realised a mistake had been made and acknowledged it , but as I had awarded the try it had to stand, luckily it didn't effect the result !Was it a correct decision ?

Let me see.

The TJ signalled the wrong team to throw in? Not your problem.

The other team didn't realise it was their throw. Not your problem.


For mine, the try stands and the team learns a lesson that, thankfully, didn't cost them the game.
 

menace


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No one noticed at the time!School match, their TJ and coach on that side !Mind you as an ex hooker, I've done it myself on numerous occasions !Still would like a clarification in Law, as I treated it the same as if a team had been playing with 16 men, before it was spotted.

So the TJ did signal correctly which team was supposed to throw in, but you didn't take much notice of the signal (just assumed the right team had it) and let the incorrect team throw it in and play on (and no objections that you allowed play on)?
Was this a moment of lost concentration and forgot who took it out?
 

menace


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As to a point of law...
[LAWS]6.A.5 Referee altering a decision
The referee may alter a decision when a touch judge has raised the flag to signal touch.
The referee may alter a decision when an assistant referee has raised the flag to signal touch or an act of foul play.[/LAWS]

And the referee cannot consult with 'others' (ie non ARs/TMO etc)... But there is nothing in the laws that says a referee cannot alter one of their own decisions all on their own. So if it ain't in the law then it can be done. For obvious reasons, I can see why you wouldn't have that as a law as it would be chaos if you didn't allow a referee to independently change their decision. (I'm sure we've all done it...I know I have...such as an incorrect arm out for the PK to the wrong team :redface:)

[LAWS]There is a law that says
6.A.4 The duties of the referee in the playing enclosure
(a)
The referee is the sole judge of fact and of Law during a match. The referee must apply fairly all the Laws of the Game in every match.[/LAWS]

Obviously we want referees to be decisive, and I'm not advocating a referee to constantly change their mind (to lose players and spectators confidence), but if the referee can fix a monumental f@ck up of theirs before it's 'too late', and it's justified then in fairness to the players, I can't see that as a problem? Of course it will all depend on the situation and the multitude of variables around it.
One thing I learnt in my work life, is that it is fine to make a mistake, but it's not fine to do nothing about it when you know you made the mistake that can be fixed.
 

wrighty


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A momentary lapse in concentration ! In hindsight and after reading all the posts,I would have consulted the TJ in order to double check and then disallowed the try.
 

Taff


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What, then, is the point of no return? Try, conversion, restart, next stoppage, ...?
Good question. Surely there comes a point where it would just be daft to go back to the original LO.

Personally, I would have thought that if he'd awarded a try, Wrighty had already passed that point.
 

Taff


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I have no idea of a law book reference, but I was of the opinion that once a try is awarded in RU, it can only be taken away if previous foul play is reported.
I'm pretty sure a Try can also be disallowed if a TJ / AJ puts a flag up for ball in touch. Interesting one this, because the LO was an incorrect one.

No one noticed at the time!School match, their TJ and coach on that side !Mind you as an ex hooker, I've done it myself on numerous occasions!
It's pretty easy to find the wrong side throwing in - especially at a PK to touch. The non-kicking side often try and take a QTI, when the blunt reality is it isn't their throw in. I've seen it happen at very high levels. Accidental or a ploy? Either way the Refs / ARs picked up on it, but when you don't have a TJ / ARs I can easily imagine it happening.
 

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Happened to me today and resulted in a try for the team that incorrectly threw in.It was only after I had awarded the try and the kicker was lining up his conversion, that a member of the other team brought it to my attention.I realised a mistake had been made and acknowledged it , but as I had awarded the try it had to stand, luckily it didn't affect the result !Was it a correct decision ?

No one noticed at the time! School match, their TJ and coach on that side !Mind you as an ex hooker, I've done it myself on numerous occasions! Still would like a clarification in Law, as I treated it the same as if a team had been playing with 16 men, before it was spotted.

Ok I need to get this clear in my head.

Ball in touch and lineout awarded. That bit is clear
However the who is unclear. which side is which and which TJ / coach is making the call?

Option 1

Line-out should have been awarded to RED.

The TJ From (RED / BLUE) indicates the lineout should be taken by BLUE
BLUE take the throw and score and a RED player points out the error.

So:

Was it the RED TJ / coach who "awarded" the throw in to BLUE?

or

Was it the BLUE TJ / coach who "awarded" the throw in to BLUE?

If the RED TJ / coach got it wrong, tough! HE and his players will learn from their mistake.
In the BLUE TJ / coach "got it wrong" I would be considering the possibility of CHEATING or was is a genuine mistake?
If I felt Blue were cheating then I would correct the error. If I felt it a genuine mistake. I'd play on and my response would be "TJ said BLUE'S line out we will go with his call."

Option 2

Line-out should have been awarded to RED.

The TJ indicates the line-out should be taken by RED.
BLUE take the throw and score and a RED player points out the error.
Check who the Line-out should have been taken by and reverse call. Line-out to be re taken correctly.
 

didds

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if everyone is in agreement then it seems eminently sensibgle to disallow then try and go back to the lineout.

If the restart had occurred, at that juncture I would suggest not much can now be done. I suppose - without anmy law reference to justify this of course - you could expounge the try+conversion (if kikcked) pooints from the record, shrug and get onj with it for ultra-equity.

I do have much empathy with the ref tho if the TJ and teams basically cocked it up themselves. Whatever you did was probably OK in the circumstances.

hopefully it wasn't critical in terms of match result if the match was cup/league.

didds
 

didds

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the only issue I haver with ATTRs suggestion, is that if the blue coach was cheating but his team otherwise had no sure way of knowing whose the lineout should be it would be harsh to penalise THEM for their coach's actions - see discussions passim

didds
 

crossref


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i don't agree with the current of opinion here.

For a line out to happen both teams must have been happy with whose throw it was, and the TJ was happy and you were happy.
It's too late to go back.

on the other hand - if it was quick-throw which you retosepctively realise was taken by wrong team, then I would go back.
The opponents didn't have a real chance to object to that until afterwards, if you don't blow the whistle then they pretty much have to play on and defend.
 

menace


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i don't agree with the current of opinion here.

For a line out to happen both teams must have been happy with whose throw it was, and the TJ was happy and you were happy.
It's too late to go back.

on the other hand - if it was quick-throw which you retosepctively realise was taken by wrong team, then I would go back.
The opponents didn't have a real chance to object to that until afterwards, if you don't blow the whistle then they pretty much have to play on and defend.

So what you are really saying is, you do agree with both opinions expressed when the right situation calls for it?

Which is what I said earlier...there are many variable to consider, make a judgment call that tries to encompass the equity, empathy, fairness and the laws. But in essence, nothing in law says you can't change your decision.

Bottom line is, whatever you do in this situation, you have likely lost the confidence of one team!
 

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the only issue I have with ATTRs suggestion, is that if the blue coach was cheating but his team otherwise had no sure way of knowing whose the lineout should be it would be harsh to penalise THEM for their coach's actions - see discussions passim

didds



How are you punishing them? They have lost a try they should not have been awarded. No punishment, merely putting it right.
 

wrighty


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OK, so here goes...Greens put in a massive kick from their 22 to blacks 22.LO was awarded 5m from blacks goal line..Ubeknown to me, greens took LO, even though black TJ and coach were on that side and scored in the opposite corner.It wasn't until green were lining up their conversion that black captain raised the point.I explained that once the try is awarded I have to stick with it, he accepted my decision and I credited him for it.As I posted earlier, maybe I should have gone over to TJ and double checked, thereby resulting in try disallowed, in hindsight !
 

wrighty


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It was a full LO and I was looking at the LO participants, not the thrower.
 
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