wrong team throws in line out!

[Account Deleted]

For both of us

Agreed.

 

[Account Deleted]

"You're absolutely right, captain. I did give the line-out to your side, and the opposition did throw it in. But even though I have discretion to change my mind, I'm not going to do so because you brought it to my attention" may be a hard sell...

You miss the point!

The ref did not signal a line-out to that captain's side only to allow the other side to take it. It would help if you dealt with the scenario as posted instead of changing it.

In the situation given the TJ did not indicate who was to throw and one side took it and play moved on. As I posted I would not have allowed the throw to take place until I had asked the TJ the question "Who's throw?"

In the circumstances given (since that is the scenario we are judging) IF I was happy the correct side threw the ball in Why would I change my mind on the word of the "wronged" captain? A man with a vested interest in ruling out the try?

However, IF I was not happy I was happy the correct side threw the ball in and therefore had doubt I might thing again but the doubt would have to be very strong.
Asking the question would have avoided the problem of course!

 

[Dickie E]

Agreed.

My games have been designated as clipboard-free zones

View attachment 2812

 

[menace]

A momentary lapse in concentration ! In hindsight and after reading all the posts,I would have consulted the TJ in order to double check and then disallowed the try.

Asking the question would have avoided the problem of course!

Lets not forget poor wrighty (OP) had a moment of lapsed concentration. Had he not, that would have avoided the problem and I'm sure he would not have got into the situation he found himself.

 

[Blackberry]

Going back to the original posts, when giving the touch judge briefing remind the TJ's to keep waving their flag if there is a problem within their remit.

If at a break in play my attention was drawn to a waving touch judge, I would go back and find out what he was signalling. If it was a "wrong team throw in" incident, I would take play back to the line out, try or no try, unless a subsequent foul play penalty trumps it. Is this correct?

 

[OB..]

You may have missed my previous posts, when I mentioned that there obviously is a point that you can't go back and you need to use some common sense and dependant on knowing all the variables at the time. I was advocating that IMO the laws allow the referee to independently change their decision, and I was advocating that I would fix monumental f@ck ups of my own errors (if I can).

As far as I'm concerned there seems little purpose to answer your scenario. Not enough info.

I too see little point in trying to deal with a specific scenario based on a verbal description. It raised a valid point and the main aim is surely to discuss the sort of considerations that should be applied in such situations.

I agree with menace.

 

[PaulDG]

In the situation given the TJ did not indicate who was to throw and one side took it and play moved on. As I posted I would not have allowed the throw to take place until I had asked the TJ the question "Who's throw?"

FWIW, I don't ask a TJ "who's throw?" (if I'm in doubt) as many don't know the Laws relating to touch anyway.

I ask them to "Tell me what you saw?"

 

[didds]

In the situation given the TJ did not indicate who was to throw and one side took it and play moved on. As I posted I would not have allowed the throw to take place until I had asked the TJ the question "Who's throw?"

But there will be similar situations whereby a quick throw which exploited a poor defensive situation could benefit a side with the (genuine) throw in. If you are going to stop play at that moment to check whose throw it is (though genuine confusion on your part) then you are now depriving that side a legitimate attacking tactic. Aren't you better off allowing lay to continue and then check at a suitable moment later when the ball is dead?

Of course - if there then is a period pof play for several minutes of recycled ball then that i itself creates a problem I accept. But it seems very harsh to event a legtimate option and tactical advantage just because you are not sure at that very moment? That could well be critical moment.

didds

 

[crossref]

A quick throw is very different, the oppo have no choice but to play to the whistle and defend it.
A lineout is very different if you think it is your throw, I can't imagine participating in a line out

 

[didds]

OK... a quickly taken lineout if you prefer. two players from each side and receiver each, a twer and somebody stding in the channel, which may be little moe tha general wanderings towards thel;ineout that "we" are about to take.

This scenario is not uncommon. I'd go as far as to say it could even be a deliberate ploy for some.

didds

 

[RobLev]

You miss the point!

The ref did not signal a line-out to that captain's side only to allow the other side to take it. It would help if you dealt with the scenario as posted instead of changing it.

...

Read wrighty's #19 and #22; he awarded the line-out to Black, but Green threw in. I am relying on the OP as so clarified.

In the situation given the TJ did not indicate who was to throw and one side took it and play moved on. As I posted I would not have allowed the throw to take place until I had asked the TJ the question "Who's throw?"

Doesn't matter; wrighty awarded it to Black. The only question he might have had to ask is "Who threw it?"; but is satisfied that Green did.

In the circumstances given (since that is the scenario we are judging) IF I was happy the correct side threw the ball in

In the circumstances given (since that is the scenario we are judging), wrighty is "happy" that the wrong side threw the ball in.

 

[RobLev]

it's a very confusing situation
- the TJ didn't signal
- at the time of the throw, red threw in and no one on the pitch seemed to notice anything amiss.
- then there is a passage of play
- and then blue captain says 'hang on, wasn't it our throw?'

I submit that it's very hard to be 100% certain, now, whose throw it really should have been....

Surely it's very easy; it is 100% certain that the team that should have thrown the ball into the line-out is the team to whom the referee awarded the line-out throw - in this case, Black (read #19 and #22). But Green threw it in.

 

[Account Deleted]

I've actually, in effect, covered this point in post 14!

Option 2

Line-out should have been awarded to RED.

The TJ (we could add REF)indicates the line-out should be taken by RED.
BLUE take the throw and score and a RED player points out the error.
Check who the Line-out should have been taken by and reverse call. Line-out to be re taken correctly.

So I actually covered the exact scenario where the "officials" indicate the side to throw but the wrong side throws it. My answer needs no sell. Here it is a referee error. Simple as that and needs correcting.

However, incomplete scenarios cause confusion.

This is why it helps is the full details are given so that scenario can be judged. Post 19 does not indicate to whom the LO has been awarded. Post 22 does. On that basis it is a critical error to award anything to one side yet allow the other side to take the award. The defence that you (the ref) were watching the line-out does not wash. You check the thrower in is from the correct side before the others come into play.

In the amended version of the story it is clear (dependent on further changes) that the ref knew he made the error and was able to "un -award" the try.

The lesson for us as refs perhaps is:

1; Ask" the TJ / AR to let you know which side is to throw in if he has not indicated it or you are sure of the answer.
2; Confirm it.
3; Check that the thrower in is from the correct side.
4; move on to the rest of the line out.

And to aide discussions can we have the full details of the scenario in the op?