Yellow Card / Quick Penalty

[peperami]

Just interested on other peoples take on this. About 5 mins to go in my game today and a play comes flying in off his feet from the side and kills attacking ball in the 22.

I started to play advantage and then awarded the penalty, when to signal time off but the captain wanted to take the quick penalty, so I allowed him to.

At the next down time the Captain, asked me about why I hadnt binned the player. (I had apparently started to reach for my card.)

I explained as he took the quick option I could not then go for the sin bin.

What would you guys think, should I have binned him, could I have binned him ?

Ben

 

[Dickie E]

There is no statute of limitations on cards. If the offence is binnable then he should have been binned at the next stoppage.

 

[SimonSmith]

Absolutely no reason to not bin him the next time the ball goes dead.

Although, from a management standpoint, if it's serious enough for a YC, ask yourself if it's serious enough to stop the quick tap.

 

[Bryan]

What these guys said...

A harder debate is whether, after the quick tap, a try is scored. Do you still go back and bin the offender? (Dickie is correct, but would you still do it)?

Always a tough one.

 

[Scarlet Al]

Yes, if you award the PK, and they take it quick, bin th player at next stoppage. Also, I think I'm correct in saying that a player can't take a PK until you've made the mark, so you could just blow whistle, not making the mark, bin the player, THEN make the mark for the PK.

 

[OB..]

The prohibition on taking a tap before the referee has made the mark applies only to a penalty/free kick that has been moved forward 10 metres.

 

[Phil E]

The prohibition on taking a tap before the referee has made the mark applies only to a penalty/free kick that has been moved forward 10 metres.

Really???

21.2 WHERE PENALTY AND FREE KICKS ARE TAKEN
(a) The kicker must take the penalty or free kick at the mark or
anywhere behind it on a line through the mark. If the place for a
penalty or free kick is within 5 metres of the opponents’ goal line,
the mark for the kick is 5 metres from the goal line, opposite the
place of infringement.

There is nothing following this statement to say this doesn't apply to kicks taken quickly.

Edit addition: Following the paragraph on "kicks taken quickly" the Law goes on to say that the penalty for any infringement by the kickers team is a scrum at the Mark, therefore reinforcing the idea that there must be a Mark.

 

[OB..]

Phil E - that does not say the referee has to make a mark.
Law 21.1
Unless a Law states otherwise, the mark for a penalty or free kick is at the place of infringement.

It is standard practice at a quick tap to allow the player to make his own judgement as to where that is. If he is too far out, you call him back.

It is different for a second kick:
Law 21.7 (end)
If the referee awards a second penalty kick, the second penalty kick is not taken before the referee has made the mark indicating the place of the penalty. [my emphasis]

 

[Phil E]

Phil E - that does not say the referee has to make a mark.
Law 21.7 (end)
If the referee awards a second penalty kick, the second penalty kick is not taken before the referee has made the mark indicating the place of the penalty. [my emphasis]

The Mark is a physical thing, if it isn't then it can't be made by a referee. If it is a physical thing then some one has to make it. Ergo, you can't have a kick until it has been made.

Further references to the Mark being a physical Mark on the ground are all through the LOTG:

9.B.1 TAKING A CONVERSION KICK
(e)The intention to kick is signalled by the arrival of the kicking tee or sand, or the player makes a mark on the ground.

18.4 WHO KICKS
The kick is taken by the player who made the mark.
Note, made the mark, not shouted mark.

(g) Front rows coming together. First, the referee marks with a
foot the place where the scrum is to be formed.
A team must not shove the scrum away
from the mark before the ball is thrown in.

So you see that we have many references to "the mark" and also instances showing "the mark" to be a physical mark on the ground.

 

[OB..]

No. You have SOME instances where the law specifies a physical mark is to be made, just as you have one instance where the referee is required to make the mark for a penalty.

The phrase "make a mark" in Law 18 cannot possibly refer to physically making a mark, since the player can be in the air at the time. It demonstrates that the word must be taken in context. "Making a mark" is the term used for catching the ball cleanly while calling "Mark!". No physical mark is required.

Do you really insist on making a mark every time a team wants to take a quick tap? That would certainly be unusual.

 

[Emmet Murphy]

There was a televised European game a week or so ago where the ref YC'd a player and almost immediately after he had shown that player the YC the opposition took a quick tap which the ref allowed. He hadn't called time off but even so I thought it was a bit strange that he allowed it - similar to Honiss at Lansdowne Road a few years back.

 

[tim White]

Unless a Law states otherwise, the mark for a penalty or free kick IS at the place of infringement.

This would seem to imply the mark exists as soon as a PK has been awarded, no subsequent dent in the ground is necessary.

In practice this is what we all see and understand. No ref would bring a team back after scoring a try from a tap penalty taken at the place of infringement just because he was too slow to give a physical mark on the pitch- at exactly the same place.

 

[Phil E]

How many times, have countless refs on this forum, stated that in their pre-match briefs they say:

"No quick taps unless I have made a mark" ?

 

[OB..]

How many times, have countless refs on this forum, stated that in their pre-match briefs they say:

"No quick taps unless I have made a mark" ?

I don't remember any. Please find some. Will any such referees please own up?

If I had seen them, I would have disagreed.

The usual remark is "Make sure you take any quick taps where I can see them, and near the mark."

A typical example is a FK awarded at a scrum. Scrum half throws the ball to the #8 who taps and goes, not waiting for the referee to make a physical mark. They know the #8 is behind where the mark is (in the middle of the scrum,with a bunch of players all over it).

 

[Phil E]

I don't remember any. Please find some. Will any such referees please own up?
If I had seen them, I would have disagreed.

Well I found a couple before I got bored:

......quick taps are ok if I have made the mark and you are in front of me.

That was by me, but you answered and no one questioned it.

Your answer - I hear quite a lot of pre-match briefings, and most follow the lines of Phil E and........

Also in the same thread

Level 9 ref: If you need to take a quick PK/FK, do it where I can see you, and within 1m of the mark I make.

 

[Phil E]

I accept that I seem to be wrong on this, although I thought I was right because of my previous quote, that no one questioned at the time.


Something else learned.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

How many times, have countless refs on this forum, stated that in their pre-match briefs they say:

"No quick taps unless I have made a mark" ?

No. I say take it where I can see it and make sure it moves or leaves your hands

 

[OB..]

Phil E - I gave a generic answer because I decided it would be too repetitive to go through the individual points. I don't think it occurred to me that people would actually insist on making a physical mark before a quick tap and assumed you meant indicating the mark. Sometimes, of course, you do make a mark, and the comment about being near it makes sense. However we now seem to be on the same page, so the discussion has been worthwhile.

 

[Dickie E]

What do we do if the offence is a lineout offence & "the mark" is 15 metres in and therefore nowhere near the place of infringement?

If the tap kicker correctly deduces/guesses where the mark would be had I made it I'd let him play on.

 

[Emmet Murphy]

It may well be a reflection of my lowly refereeing status but I've never seen that Dickie E - in situations like that they have always tapped it next to me ... I've never had an eager player run to the correct place (eg 15m line after a lineout offence) and tried to go from there!