Yellow card to replacement

oldman


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I am lead to believe the following happened at a national league game this weekend. I have been asked to get an opinion on it.
Situation - Red score a try (no problem) Red replacements walking to warm up in in-goal are at side of pitch and rush on to congratulate scorer. Green player takes exception to comment by Red replacement and words/pushing possibly blows exchanged in a multi player melee. Order is restored and referee decides to Yellow card Green instigator and Red replacement at centre of disagreement. Play resumes with Green having 14 players but Green still have 15 although referee tells Red replacement he cannot come on for at least ten minutes.
I was asked as an ex referee if this was within then law and correct. I do not know. Can anyone help?
 

Flish


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Honest answer is no idea, but gut reaction is a yellow carding a sub serves little unless he makes an appearance on pitch and gets yellowed again?
 

Balones

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This would probably mean that the red replacement would not be used at all. A yellow card timing applies to playing time. A replacement does not have playing time until that team wants him to come on. For him to come on that team would have to go down to 14 players for that time. Would a team want this? Well that is the way I would interpret it and support a ref in that decision. It might not be right but it makes sense to me.
 
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menace


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IMO the 10mins for the YC applies as soon as the player leaves the field. So for the next 10mins he can't be used or come onto play until that 10mins playing time expired. If the team dont need him as a replacement then lucky them...but if they do need him (ie FR or last replacement needed for an injury etc) then they go down to 14 for that time.
The added advantage of issuing the YC without necessarily the team suffering any disadvantage is that if that player YC again then it's a Red. Also in our parts all YCs are recorded and if they accumulate 3 (or 5??) in a season then they get a mandatory 1 week rest! (Players have missed grand finals because of this rule).
 

crossref


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I think menace has it right .. it makes sense for the two YC issued to both expire at the same moment , after 10m of playing time has elapsed .
 

Balones

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IMO the 10mins for the YC applies as soon as the player leaves the field. So for the next 10mins he can't be used or come onto play until that 10mins playing time expired. If the team dont need him as a replacement then lucky them...but if they do need him (ie FR or last replacement needed for an injury etc) then they go down to 14 for that time.
The added advantage of issuing the YC without necessarily the team suffering any disadvantage is that if that player YC again then it's a Red. Also in our parts all YCs are recorded and if they accumulate 3 (or 5??) in a season then they get a mandatory 1 week rest! (Players have missed grand finals because of this rule).

The recording of yellow cards depends on the level in this game. At the level mentioned it depends if it is foul play or not. Foul play cards are recorded and accumulated.
 

oldman


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Guys,
Thanks for thoughts. Had not thought about Red player having to serve 10mins when he came on, but a thinking coach (if such a beast exists) would not put him on if at all possible. However I cannot but think it's against natural justice that one side has 14 players while the other has 15 after a yellow card each. Interesting problem for league officials, just glad I'm a spectator these days.
 

Marc Wakeham


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I thin Balones is right but I dont "know". However, moving this forward. It begs a couple of questions:

1: Why do we allow teams to warm up ingoal? It can only create this sort of flash point. Why create problems? In Wales replacements must not be in the tech area yet we allow than on the pitch (albeit in goal) / Crazy!

2: If a person who is not actually involved in palay gets involved in foul play, should we be thinking red rather than yellow anyway? After all, they should not be there. They have no reason to be getting involved.
 

didds

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At the level this occurred at there probably isn't any other space to warm up in. At grass roots there is potentially acres of adjacent areas to do so.

Didds
 

crossref


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At grass roots level subs do more standing around and chatting, than warming up!
That includes the one carrying the TJ flag !
 

leaguerefaus


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At the level this occurred at there probably isn't any other space to warm up in. At grass roots there is potentially acres of adjacent areas to do so.

Didds
I can't think of any other sport that allows players to warm up on an active field though?
 

Marc Wakeham


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At the level this occurred at there probably isn't any other space to warm up in. At grass roots there is potentially acres of adjacent areas to do so.

Didds

YOu're telling me that clubs could not put a bit of artificial grass down reasonable near to the pitch for warning up? I can't think of a ground where it is not possible.
 

menace


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The recording of yellow cards depends on the level in this game. At the level mentioned it depends if it is foul play or not. Foul play cards are recorded and accumulated.

Presumably the red players comments to stir the blue player to react...to then get YC must have been 'misconduct' which.comes under law 9 (old 10)... which is Foul Play?? So why wouldn't it be reported?
 

menace


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Guys,
Thanks for thoughts. Had not thought about Red player having to serve 10mins when he came on, but a thinking coach (if such a beast exists) would not put him on if at all possible. However I cannot but think it's against natural justice that one side has 14 players while the other has 15 after a yellow card each. Interesting problem for league officials, just glad I'm a spectator these days.

Not that I would criticise anyone that did so - I just cant see how you could justify in law holding over a 10min sin bin until they came on. Just to be sent off again for 10min. I can see in law that once you issue a YC the 10min sin bin starts as soon as the player leaves the field. :shrug:
 

Camquin

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There has only been only player get done for three FP yellows in the National Leagues this season - and they got a 2 week ban.

At Nat 1 there are 5 and Nat 2 4 replacements - so I have seen sides finish with 14 men having run out of fit replacements.
I have rarely seen a side run out of interchanges.

I assume the reason for warming up in-goal is due to the barrier around the playing area, so you cannot guarantee the players can easilly warm up elsewhere. Though at most grounds it is a low fence and they could vault it.

However, it would not be beyond the wit of the comittee to issue a regulations saying that players cannot warm up in-goal while there side are attacking within the 22m. Of course the officials are already too busy to enforce this, so it would end up with the regularion on who can be in the technical area and the oen about substitutes joining play on the half way line.
 

crossref


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At some point there will be a critical incident .. like grubber kick that hits a sub or, worse, a sub with his back to the play getting clattered by an incoming 13, at speed, and then this issue will be be examined
 

Balones

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Presumably the red players comments to stir the blue player to react...to then get YC must have been 'misconduct' which.comes under law 9 (old 10)... which is Foul Play?? So why wouldn't it be reported?

I didn't say it wasn't reported. I was merely informing people what the process was in relation to recording YCs and accumulating 'points'.
You are correct that this could be deemed misconduct and could be reported.
 

Balones

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I thin Balones is right but I dont "know". However, moving this forward. It begs a couple of questions:

1: Why do we allow teams to warm up ingoal? It can only create this sort of flash point. Why create problems? In Wales replacements must not be in the tech area yet we allow than on the pitch (albeit in goal) / Crazy!

2: If a person who is not actually involved in palay gets involved in foul play, should we be thinking red rather than yellow anyway? After all, they should not be there. They have no reason to be getting involved.

1 - It is in regulations I believe that players are allowed to warm up in the in-goal area. As Didds has pointed out there is no other space inside most grounds at this level and quite often it is a stadium type arrangement.
2 - On some reflection I have some support for this. There is precedence in terms of red cards being issued for interfering with play in such circumstances which wasn't even foul play. Here it would appear however that the incident was initiated by the playing player so it is a more difficult situation.
 

OB..


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I was at Twickenham some years ago when England were playing New Zealand. The NZ subs decided to warm up in the in-goal area just as Jonny Wilkinson was lining up a kick at that goal. Fortunately it did not put him off, but if it had, I would like to think the referee would have given him a second shot and removed the All Black subs.

The crowd booed them as they returned to their seats.
 

Balones

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I can tell you that all the above questions are being raised at the appropriate level and if I find out anything more I will bring you up to date. The only law that can apply is 6.5 which allows the referee to be the sole judge and apply the laws as he see fit - assuming that there is no definite law that he can apply in a specific situation.
It was unfortunate that in this incident the side that lost a player for 10 minutes lost very narrowly so do feel even more aggrieved.
 
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