Yellow Cards

[ex-lucy]

as mentioned in another fred ...
last season i (officially) gave out 41x YCs and 2x RCs
in actual fact it was 52 x YCs and 3x RCs in 81 matches.

this season so far ...
27 x YCs and 1x RC in 22 matches.

obviously there is a problem .... so advice is welcome
lets look at yesterday's National Colts Cup match
home = red, away = green
pre-match brief to both capts .. 'this isnt a soccer or a cricket match - no appealing. qs thru you and then to me at downtime.'
right from the first red were not listening to my good comms.
"hooker get back, that's offside" he looked at me and didnt move. so at next line out i explained to both packs about my definition of offside and the back feet.
next ruck ... same . .etc etc
then the red 9 started appealing. i stopped play and asked capt to talk to him "remember what i said before ko?"
red were infringing a lot at breakdowns. i spoke to capt and warned him.
i had warned both teams about high tackles and dump tackles and sure enough red 9 high tackled in his 22m so had 10 mins rest. HT was 9-17
just after half time a skirmish between two centres so they had 10 mins rest (both struck each other).
second half was scrappy and both teams were spoiling.
lots of hard tackles.
Red scrum had been under alot of pressure. i had warned red lucy for standing up 3x and then pinged him twice (warning to skipper, ask hi mto stay down or get me a prop who can) before i yellow carded him.
then just befor end .. anotehr centre skirmish (again both struck each other).
so both went again .. this was green 13's second yellow card.

then near the end some of the red players wanted to know how long to go ... i told teh capt the time but they still wanted to know at each breakdown, i implored them to use their capt tna.
then near the end, 10m out .. i had just sent the green centre off .. so time was off .. i said "wait pls" a few times to the red pen taker.... he took a quick tap and ran .. so i blew and asked hi mto come back to the mark.
"i said wait" ... "but ref ....."
jeez .. i nealry lost it and sent him to the bin ... this was the same player who kept asking the time ...
anyway ... i kept my cool and pulled him back to the mark and blew for tiem on. red scored but lost ...
i was exasperated ... tired ... and totally fed up.
green players thought i had a very good game despite all red's shenanigans.

but i look back now ... and think .... i am trying to keep my yellow cards down then i get that match ,... my standards are such that if i see an offence i will blow it (afetr adv etc) ... and will produce YCs when i deem it worthy.

i think about it now ..dont know where i could have managed better. i talked ... talked (my assessments say i am a good communicator) but they just werent listening so i had to go to cards etc. 6 yellow cards .. 2 to same player so 1 rc.

i used materiality owise we would have had loads more pens, i used lots of advantage some went ok some i came back for.

is it a case of me seeing more offences?
i hate cheating at rugby

 

[Davet]

Difficult.

Having read a number of your posts over a couple of years you do seem to have suffer a lot from players not listening. Your assessors say you are a good comunicator, so you are talking.

I do pick up on comments like, "jeez .. i nealry lost it and sent him to the bin ... this was the same player who kept asking the time ...
anyway ..."

2 things occur (as pure guesswork) -

1) it may be that players "aren't listening" because they don't understand - by which I mean they hear the words, but their normal experience is that what they are doing is OK. It may be that your standards are higher than they are normally required to meet. I am not sure I would advise you to lower your expectations... that would seem a difficult option - but you may be able to spend some time watching fellow refs at similar games and see if they are imposing the same requirements. It might help if all the referees they come across work to rough;y the same standards, if one is significantly higher or lowe than the rest that can create it's own difficulties.

2) How personally do you take their inablity to listen and persistent infringing? It sometimes can appear as if they are doing it to spite you - whereas more usually you are the last thing on their mind, they are either simply doing what they always do, or are trying to put one over the opposition, not you. But I am a fully paid up memeber of of the "listen to what to say and stop being stupid club", and appreciate the frustration - just try and let it float over you, and not result in grinding teeth.

 

[FlipFlop]

hooker get back, that's offside" he looked at me and didnt move. so at next line out i explained to both packs about my definition of offside and the back feet.
next ruck ... same . .etc etc

Maybe you're not saying the right thing, or TOO much (so white noise)?
Firstly the above quote - why not just use "push back 2" or "get back 2" or "back foot 2". Simple instructions. No need for the you're offside etc - white noise.

then you explain about offside etc - perhaps at this point you lose respect from the players? After all they think they "Know offside". Perhaps all you need at this point is, when giving the PK, the words "#2 offside - If I ask you to get back, you need to get back"" should be all that are needed.

I get the impression from some of your posts that you talk almost constantly during a game. Telling players this, and that, etc. Perhaps you do this to help your decision making, but perhaps it results in players not listening.

So my advice is simple - less can be more. Imagine you are reffing in a foreign language and what you would need to prevent offences - you language would be much simpler. Back, Stop, Hold etc. And sentences are not required.

 

[niall murphy]

Sounds like you did the best you could with a team that just weren't prepare to listen. Davet's advice is similar to what I try to do to see where other ref's standards are, but if a team or both teams don't want to play the game it's not the ref's fault !

 

[FlipFlop]

Then near the end some of the red players wanted to know how long to go ... i told teh capt the time but they still wanted to know at each breakdown, i implored them to use their capt tna.

Implored them? why not. time off. "Captain please. You have X minutes left. I have told you. If you wish to know, ask me at down time. If your players continue to appeal for time, it will be taken as dissent by me, so I advise you to prevent them. Do you understand?" Clear message, and an escalation.

then near the end, 10m out .. i had just sent the green centre off .. so time was off .. i said "wait pls" a few times to the red pen taker....

Point 1: You have just sent someone off. And yet the Red PK taker is on the ball? Why not change your card procedure - separate the teams, get both teams back and AWAY from the mark. Then deal with the RC, ensuring both teams know what will happen next. Then you can walk to the mark, put the time on, make the mark, and away.

Point 2: You only need to say "Wait" or "No" once, not several times. Again - if a player things you saying it once isn't good enough, then you have clearly not got them controlled. I would guess that you sometimes let people off the hook - i.e. ask players to get back, they don't and then you don't PK them. Calling several times for release, and only PK on the 3rd or 4th call. etc.

he took a quick tap and ran .. so i blew and asked hi mto come back to the mark.
"i said wait" ... "but ref ....."
jeez .. i nealry lost it and sent him to the bin ... this was the same player who kept asking the time ...

The best response to "but ref" that I have found is a simple fingers to lips and a gentle "shhhhh". It calms you down, and doesn't inflame situations. BUT think about your actions. He was allowed on the mark early. You obviously approached the mark when you weren't ready etc. Could you have prevented this situation from occurring by doing something differently?

And finally - get yourself videoed with a connected mike. I expect your "good comms" and situation management aren't as good as you think!

 

[Adam]

I don't know about you but I use slightly alternative words to what most people use. They're equally as short but I think hearing something different almost makes them listen to what I say more, making them more likely to comply. I think this is due to it not being the same calls, which could be white noise.

I suppose it could work the other way sometimes in that they're not used to hearing these calls, and as such don't process the information quick enough. On the whole it works well I think.

EDIT: The way I think when making the preventative calls is that they're lucky for me to say it once. They should know how to play rugby. If they don't comply, then tough luck! Otherwise they will learn to wait until the second or third call.

 

[ex-lucy]

all good stuff .. keep it coming .. thx
pretend foreign lang sounds interesting

 

[Adam]

all good stuff .. keep it coming .. thx
pretend foreign lang sounds interesting

Sorry for being dense, but what is the C1 grade in new money?

 

[niall murphy]

Our grades are different here so could someone put up the English grade system with examples of what games level 8 might do and what level ref Club 2nds etc might expect, Thanks in advance. N

 

[Davet]

English grades
Level 1 = premiership
Level 2 = championship
Level 3 = National League1
Level 4 = National League 2
Level 5 = National League 3
Level 6 = London 1 --- South West 1
Level 7 = London 2 --- Southern Counties; Western Counties
Level 8 = London 3 --- Dorset & Wilts 1
Level 9 = Hampshire 1 --- Dorset & Wilts 2
Level 10 = Hampshire 2 --- D&W 3

Check out http://www.rfu.com/FixturesAndResults click into the regions and the levels are shown

2nd teams play about 3 levels lower than 1st team
3rds about 3 below 2nds etc.


However there are variations - eg at my local side we have the Ones - in London 3 (SW), L8, and generally fair rugby, serious sides who train twice a week and have a game plan. We have a 2nds who actually play in Dorset&Wilts 2, which is L9, as described above... and we have a "Blues" as a 3rd and occasional team... who are probably L13 if they're lucky.

The ref grades match the team grades.

So a L8 ref would get L8 games where possible, may get lower games if not enough at L8, and may get a L7 game if he is felt capable and looking for promotion.

 

[niall murphy]

Thanks Davet, I can see where I fit in , off now to a schools game U16, N

 

[PaulDG]

Our grades are different here so could someone put up the English grade system with examples of what games level 8 might do and what level ref Club 2nds etc might expect, Thanks in advance. N

Our grades count down from the Premiership (level 1), Championship (level 2) and all the way down.

Our probationers/newbies on grade 15 tend to do "vets" and "extras" teams, (often the hardest games there are due to the combination of poor skills and old heads who know all the tricks..).

At grade 13, it'll be bottom end merit table games (social rugby, less competitive sides often with uncontested scrums as one side will have an incomplete front row).

By my grade, 11, it's top end social rugby and the bottom end of the English league system - so that's the 1st teams of very minor clubs.

From me up, there's some pretty competitive amateur rugby up to level 6.

At level 5, referees are appointed by the RFU and are paid (I think it's a couple of hundred quid a game, but that does include expenses, I think..) and the players are often semi-pro.

Most junior games are graded at levels below 15 - though things like the Daily Mail and the 1st XVs of some of the top rugby schools count as Level 8 or better.

There's a guide to what a ref is expected to cope with here. (But it's only approximate - the technical skills are less important at higher levels than the experience and confidence with dealing with spectators and the pressures from coaches who may be professional and being paid by results..)

 

[Simon Thomas]

So a L8 ref would get L8 games where possible, may get lower games if not enough at L8, and may get a L7 game if he is felt capable and looking for promotion.

and if he every bothers to fill in an availability form, keeps it up to date, doesn't cherry pick his matches (e.g. no travel to IOW), commits to reffing each weekend & not only once or twice a month, plus stays fit and not get injured like most of our L8s & L7s.

Rant over.

 

[PaulDG]

and if he every bothers to fill in an availability form, keeps it up to date, doesn't cherry pick his matches (e.g. no travel to IOW), commits to reffing each weekend & not only once or twice a month, plus stays fit and not get injured like most of our L8s & L7s.

Rant over.

And not wear leggings?

 

[Simon Thomas]

At level 5, referees are appointed by the RFU and are paid (I think it's a couple of hundred quid a game, but that does include expenses, I think..) and the players are often semi-pro.

At L5 Referees are appointed by the four Groups (South West, London & SE, Midlands and North), it is only at L4 and above that the RFU appoints Panel of National Referees and ARs. L5 have no appointed ARs.

The L5 Referees are not paid a match fee (that is for the Panel guys only) and claim travel expenses only.

Oh and they get watched every week by silly old bugga's like me and are assessed very harshly to see if they are good enough to progress to Panel.

L5 clubs in SW Group have only a very few semi-pro players (it does vary club to club) but do have some very good high quality paid coaches. Usually the rest of the players may get £20-£50 per game, but that is beer money not semi-pro status. Others get say £100-£150 per match and may be employed in a day job by club's major sponsor, or have a paid Community Rugby Coach role funded by schools/council/club. But still lots of players at L5 are paid nothing, but dont have a match fee to pay :biggrin: .

Clubs 'on the up' do have more semi-pro, or even fully pro players on their climb into the National Leagues at L4 and above (Jersey being a prime example).

 

[Simon Thomas]

And not wear leggings?

Paul - leggings would be a flogging offence in Hampshire; just lycra undershorts might get you keel hauling :biggrin:

 

[Davet]

Note the references to flogging and keel hauling.

Hampshire's a very maritime sort of county....

which reminds me:

What the difference between a battle at sea, and sex?

One's a naval encounter involving loss of seamen...

 

[Bill Lee]

Simont T
Post 15. You got that in quick Simon. I had something similar Re L5 appointments but was just not quick enough.

Regards Bill Lee.

 

[ex-lucy]

1) it may be that players "aren't listening" because they don't understand - by which I mean they hear the words, but their normal experience is that what they are doing is OK. It may be that your standards are higher than they are normally required to meet. I am not sure I would advise you to lower your expectations... that would seem a difficult option - but you may be able to spend some time watching fellow refs at similar games and see if they are imposing the same requirements. It might help if all the referees they come across work to rough;y the same standards, if one is significantly higher or lowe than the rest that can create it's own difficulties.

i would say that esp with Colts their normal experience is that what they are doing is ok. My standards are higher than what they normally come across up to then .. U17s club ref compared to a L8 ref is very diff kettle of fish.
i do watch other refs my level and am expasperated at what they let go or just dont see. i have provided examples in other freds over the years but they simply do not referee the breakdowns or accept backchat akin to dissent and abuse. I think they turn a blind eye for an easy life.
imho

 

[ex-lucy]

Maybe you're not saying the right thing, or TOO much (so white noise)?
Firstly the above quote - why not just use "push back 2" or "get back 2" or "back foot 2". Simple instructions. No need for the you're offside etc - white noise.

then you explain about offside etc - perhaps at this point you lose respect from the players? After all they think they "Know offside". Perhaps all you need at this point is, when giving the PK, the words "#2 offside - If I ask you to get back, you need to get back"" should be all that are needed.

I get the impression from some of your posts that you talk almost constantly during a game. Telling players this, and that, etc. Perhaps you do this to help your decision making, but perhaps it results in players not listening.

So my advice is simple - less can be more. Imagine you are reffing in a foreign language and what you would need to prevent offences - you language would be much simpler. Back, Stop, Hold etc. And sentences are not required.

i do use "push back ..."
actually first pen was against red 3 round the blind side .. "get onside red" pointing at the player. "adv, pen adv to green. red 3 offside" and then told them exactly what i wanted at ensuing line out ... next ruck .. 2 was in front off back foot on open side .. "push back 2" ..no response other than look at me.. "move 2". pk. explained again about back feet.
2 did it again, other reds did it .. other than be very dictatorial and yc red 2 in first 5 mins for 3 offsides ... i cant see how else to manage this ...
but i have been told by the powers that be that i should be giving out less ycs.