Zulu Chant

Dickie E


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Phil just raises more questions than he answers :)

What's the story here ?

Taffy, what happened here? Why didn't you go back for the touch once you realised the TJs flag was up? Did you overrule the TJ or what?
 

Taffy


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Taffy, what happened here? Why didn't you go back for the touch once you realised the TJs flag was up? Did you overrule the TJ or what?

I overruled him. In hindsight I should have gone back. As he raised his flag lots of the players were shouting "Sir". "Sir". I had had my fill of the dissent and shouting by then and just let it play on. I felt that I should have made the call earlier and by the time I had realised thought "We'll just go with it".

I did see the TJ at half time and said "I guess I am off your Christmas Card list then?".
 

Dickie E


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I overruled him.

Why did you do that? Did you clearly see that he made a mistake? While you have the right to overrule remember the concept of "team of 3" is a 2 way street. I'm thinking that this may be where your problems first started.
 

Dickie E


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I felt that I should have made the call earlier and by the time I had realised thought "We'll just go with it".

If you award a try then see the TJ flag up on halfway you can/should still go back for the lineout.
 

leaguerefaus


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Over ruling a TJ on touch is absolutely crazy unless you happen to be right on the touchline too.. and even then you need to be 100% sure.
 

OB..


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If you award a try then see the TJ flag up on halfway you can/should still go back for the lineout.
I remember this happening in a Varsity match in the days when the previous year's captains ran touch. Oxford scored a try, but it was called back because their own TJ still had his flag up near half-way.
 

SimonSmith


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I overruled him. In hindsight I should have gone back. As he raised his flag lots of the players were shouting "Sir". "Sir". I had had my fill of the dissent and shouting by then and just let it play on.
I'd be interested in teasing this out a bit more to understand your thought process more fully.

One way of interpreting is that because you were done with their appeals you decided to play on, regardless of whether or not the TJ was correct.

Did you call "play on" loudly?

And as a general rule, as others have referenced, regardless of the state of the appeals, you need to be very sure to overrule the man on the spot...
 

Pegleg

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the problem is that, in this field position, it was the chanters who benefited from the time-out.

All 31 on the field benefited from there being no "fireworks".
 

Taffy


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because you were done with their appeals you decided to play on, regardless of whether or not the TJ was correct.

Correct

Did you call "play on" loudly?

Correct

 

didds

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And did Phil speak to you regarding the flag up when you awarded the try? civilly or otherwise?

didds
 

Taffy


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And did Phil speak to you regarding the flag up when you awarded the try? civilly or otherwise?

didds


Oh yes, quite a lot of the team were yelling at me actually.

I did speak to Phil straight after the conversion of the try and said "Phil, if I have got it wrong, I apologise, but it's not acceptable to start yelling" - or something like that (I am sure he will put me right if need be!).
 

Dixie


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I am right in front of the post, Green are raring to go and about ten of the white team are under the posts facing the attackers and start calling the "set", ready to launch themselves at the attackers.
As has been mentioned, Green are in the ascendant here, with considerable space out wide. I did wonder which captain had raised the issue with you after the game:
I explained to the captain after the match in the bar that I would post this and see what the response was.
Phil's involvement confirms that it was White, but by calming the situation down, you have allowed White to re-organise to Green's detriment.

As others have mentioned, there is most definitely a time and a place for taking the heat out of a situation. I'm sure most of us on this board have at one time or another lost control of a match by failing to exercise prudent game management when things got heated. Only you can know whether you judged the moment correctly, but I'd be harsher on a ref who failed to take calming measures than on one who took such measures before they were strictly necessary.

There is a vast difference between announcing a defensive play, and aggressive chanting from 10 players.
For me that's unfair behavior (especially following on from repeated dissent.) & I think worthy of a penalty.

Law reference 22.17(c)
L'Irlandais, I think you are in danger of straying into an area where personal likes and dislikes colour your application of what should be objective law. The law reference you quote actually says:

[LAWS](c) Any other foul play [in-goal]. When a player commits any other foul play in the in-goal while the ball is out of play, the penalty kick is awarded at the place where the game would otherwise have re-started.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

What you have not done is to identify the foul play. You are asserting that aggressive chanting constitutes foul play - but does it? And in what circumstances? When I played (admittedly more than a few years ago), it was common at a scrum for both sets of forwards to engage in a chant during what would now be the engagement sequence, aiming to maintain an identical cadence to unify the shove when the ball came in. Is that penalisable? I see nothing in Law 10 other than the generic catch-all 10.4(m): "acts contrary to good sportsmanship" . To find an offence under even that wide law, you need to show that the conduct complained of violates "the spirit of good sportsmanship" in the playing enclosure. While you are the judge of fact and law and so can make it all up as you go along if you choose, I suggest that this "spirit" is far too loose a concept to allow a uniform approach in the case of chanting a defensive set.

YMMV of course.
 

SimonSmith


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because you were done with their appeals you decided to play on, regardless of whether or not the TJ was correct.

Correct

Did you call "play on" loudly?

Correct


Personally Taffy I find that troubling. If the TJ has his flag up, you give touch UNLESS you know for a fact he is in error. The actions of the players, in this specific regard, do not mean that you allow your feelings to override the facts. That smacks a bit of trying to teach them a lesson, and not doing so by legitimate means.

You may have mitigated things a tad by calling "play on", but if I understood what you did with the TJ, I find that to be anathema to what's central to our role as a referee.
 

Taffy


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I got it wrong
But it's all gone in the learning pot.

:sad:
 

Paule23


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Personally Taffy I find that troubling. If the TJ has his flag up, you give touch UNLESS you know for a fact he is in error. The actions of the players, in this specific regard, do not mean that you allow your feelings to override the facts. That smacks a bit of trying to teach them a lesson, and not doing so by legitimate means.

You may have mitigated things a tad by calling "play on", but if I understood what you did with the TJ, I find that to be anathema to what's central to our role as a referee.

Personally I like the refreshing honesty.

Yes, it's the wrong thing to do, but who can say they haven't got mightily peed off with a team in the heat of the moment and either ignored something (or certainly wanted to) to make a point.

I don't think I've over-ruled a TJ in such circumstances, but there have been a few occasions where I've refused to speak to the Captain or other players for a short period as I was too bloody annoyed and would have said the wrong thing.

On the chanting question, I think Taffy handled it perfectly. I know some people are suggesting wait until the next breakdown/time off, but with the heat rising there could well have been an unwanted incident prior to that. Good game management to call time off, have a chat, calm things down, then play on. Incidentally chanting and goading are a bug bear of mine, something I often mention in my pre-match briefing, I even give it a law references when I remember (not that anyone know what the law is when I ask them!)
 

ddjamo


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ananthema
noun, plural anathemas.
1. a person or thing detested or loathed: That subject is anathema to him.
2. a person or thing accursed or consigned to damnation or destruction.
3. a formal ecclesiastical curse involving excommunication.
4. any imprecation of divine punishment.
5. a curse; execration.
 

Dickie E


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I got it wrong
But it's all gone in the learning pot.

:sad:

Taffy, what are the learnings you're taking away from this?

(not trying to be a smart arse, but your OP seems to be dealing with a symptom, not the cause).
 
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