Zulu Chant

Taffy


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Taffy, what are the learnings you're taking away from this?

(not trying to be a smart arse, but your OP seems to be dealing with a symptom, not the cause).

What Issue? - the Chanting or the touch judge issue as both issues have got mangled together on one thread!
 

Dickie E


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What Issue? - the Chanting or the touch judge issue as both issues have got mangled together on one thread!

I'd suggest that the former issue has led to the latter issue so are naturally intertwined. I'm interested if you see it that way too. If you do, what are the learnings from all of this?
 

Taffy


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I'd suggest that the former issue has led to the latter issue so are naturally intertwined. I'm interested if you see it that way too. If you do, what are the learnings from all of this?

I think that there was a whole management issue about the first 25 minutes that needed dealing with. The goodwill generated between myself and the captain of white (Phil) suggests I got enough right in that area and indeed the game to have earned my respect as a ref. In every game I feel there are always areas where you learn, some massively and others just a tweak here and there, but I don't tend to contemplate them for too long, make a mistake, learn and get on with it. Learnings? Yes of course, probably being able to be quick and smart enough to not allow one issue to flood over into another? But of course we are all human...and when we see that Premiership Refs get it wrong with a full team of three and a TMO then I think that we can take heart from our performances, albeit when we make mistakes.

After the try (touch judge issue) I spoke to Phil captain on half way and said "If I got it wrong I am sorry, but I am going to make about 1,000 decisions today - bear with me on that one". I think a refreshing honest approach at times can be helpful. Does that help?
 

Dixie


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I spoke to Phil captain on half way and said "If I got it wrong I am sorry, but I am going to make about 1,000 decisions today - bear with me on that one". I think a refreshing honest approach at times can be helpful. Does that help?
And this is important. Many people believe that the ref only makes a decision when he blows the whistle, but for every peep there are several tens of decisions that result in "no peep". A perfect game is not a rational aspiration, so it's all about how you deal with the inevitable errors. I think Taffy's approach of fronting up requires a great deal of self-confidence and a winning way with people. It wouldn't work for me, but he seems to have got Phil's buy-in, so it seems to work for him.
 

Taffy


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Dixie has got it spot on IMHO.

I've spent a while getting into the style that works for me and it has taken some time and lots of heartache along the way. I have a friend who was a former Premiership Ref and we meet for a bite to eat now and again. He said that he always felt that it was the way in which you handled people and dealt with things and then manner in which you conducted yourself with the players which was remembered long after the bad decision that lost them the game. He said that after retiring someone said to him "You weren't the most accurate, but you were the best" and that comment I think speaks volumes.

There are tales in my society of an old ref who was so officious on the field that no one ever spoke to him. They said he was ALWAYS technically right in law and you couldn't argue with him. He even red carded a player in the bar afterwards once (this was a long time ago). But he was HATED. And I think that is really critical news for us all. It is a totally different thing to get on the pitch and blow your whistle in a schoolmasterly way and issue instructions. Do that and people don't buy in to you at all. Getting the balance of discipline and humour right is a real art and it can in some ways be learned.

I don't believe I have all the answers for one minute, but I know that I am oustandingly approachable and happy to chat and take comments from players in the right manner. But, for me it works well if I say at the outset that all chat must come through the captain. This strict "rule for me" works, when it is forgotten then we can go to "Tell" and then "Penalise" and once players know that you will follow through with things they invariably comply. My survey results after the matches show this clearly and often with good humour. It is probably a personality thing, my work involves dealing with the general public and has been for over 30 years. When I was very, very young (19) I was shovelled into a massively reponsible position where I was managing a huge number of people in very stressful situations and it helped me "crack my balls" if you will pardon the phrase. It has always stood me in good stead.

To conclude I have made some outstandingly bad errors refereeing, but always recovered to put it in the learning box and carried on.
 
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didds

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so, as part of the learning box, what did these incidents lead you to? :)

didds
 

didds

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yes. so if you reflect and put things in the learning box, what did you put in the learning box from this game and in particular the two incidents discussed - which will help you in the future?

that's all :)

Actually I see you did provide an answer above. However - and really WADR - just accepting that sometimes you make an error and that's just the way it is isn't really learning anything. YMMV naturally.

Aside - I appreciate your views are your own, but accepting wrongly awarding a try by ignoring a touch flag as punishment for a team shouting at you is not I would say a positive process to just accept as the way things are, and as one of 10000 decisions made. Its a critical error in the words of assessors (AIUI). However, this is not meant as a witch hunt! If you don't see that as a problem then we have to accept that is your view on it.

didds
 
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Taffy


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Learning 1

being able to be quick and smart enough to not allow one issue to flood over into another (The try after the touch should not have been given)

Learning 2

Probably clamp down even quicker on chat as once I had done so it went astonishingly quiet and we had a good game

Learning 3

Keeping a dialogue going with the skipper even after you have peed him off is good form


:wales:


 

didds

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so no need to reflect on the awarding of a try you knew wasn't? Just checking :)

didds
 

Taffy


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so no need to reflect on the awarding of a try you knew wasn't? Just checking :)

didds

(The try after the touch should not have been given)

As Basil Fawlty once said:

"I'm sorry if it is confusing"
:shrug:
 

Taffy


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Thought in the context of the thread it would be helpful to post details of a survey received just after the match
being discussed


Q8: How much did the referee add to the enjoyment of the game?


  • He added things at times
  • Any further comments It's generally players who spoil it ,




Q9: Can you please indicate whether you were either: (choice)


  • A coach or manager of a winning team



Q10: On a scale of 1 - 10, where 10 is the best ever performance and 1 is the worst, where would you rate the referee's performance in this match?


  • 7
  • Any further commentsIts a bit harsh to judge refs as we cant play with out them , as you are aware i hope , if you see the game from a different angle our interpretaions may be differnt , after the game he was approachable and asked us to comment on his performance , he was unsure on one descision but was going to seek advice . You cant ask anymore than that
The response made me smile which my surveys have not always done.....



 
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barker14610


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Learning 1


[/I][/B]Learning 2

Probably clamp down even quicker on chat as once I had done so it went astonishingly quiet and we had a good game

Learning 3

Keeping a dialogue going with the skipper even after you have peed him off is good form


:wales:




One of the esteemed members on here has taught me a very useful phrase: "Captain, don't come to me with interpretations." The first time he says, "Sir, that pass was a little forward," I gently remind him that we won't be discussing every decision. Clear and obvious gets called. It works really well.
 

Dickie E


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One of the esteemed members on here has taught me a very useful phrase: "Captain, don't come to me with interpretations."

There are lots of things I wouldn't say, and that would be one of them.
 

SimonSmith


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I'm interested - genuinely interested, and not just to pick a fight - as to why, Dickie?

I'm not sure that the phraseology is exactly what I would adopt, but the sentiment...yes
 

menace


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I'm interested - genuinely interested, and not just to pick a fight - as to why, Dickie?

I'm not sure that the phraseology is exactly what I would adopt, but the sentiment...yes

I'm with Dickie...I probably wouldn't say it like that, and I think that was his point....and although I can't speak for Dickie I'd bet it was the phraseology that was the problem not the sentiment. As always 'it's not what you say...it's how you say it' that could either change behavior or add fuel to the fire.

So the why I wouldn't use that phrase is the bit "don't come to me with..." sounds very igitated, confrontational and negative as if to say "don't you dare even think about talking to me about it you don't have that right to say I was wrong". They're not 5 years old. I would think wording such as "thanks captain, I hear what you're saying but I didn't see it that way, and it won't help us if we debate every decision"

I've used this phrase a few times when debate/dissent start to creep in. "captain, I don't expect you to agree with me all the time, but I can't have you; arguing about it/speaking that way to me"

Not that I'm a comms expert...far from it...more often than not I say the right sentiment the wrong way! What sounds good in my head doesn't sound that way when it rolls off the tongue.
 
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Taffy


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It might be too late and the genie might well be out of the bottle but if we want to protect our beautiful game we need to nail this and nail it early. I have hardly seen any rugby since the World Cup, but on the 10 minutes of the latest Quins v L Irish game I saw last night enough "dissent" from the skippers to make me turn off early. Although it wouldn't have been what I would have said I liked the ref who told George Ford recently "Ooh now you've told me that I'm going to change my mind".

The captains do not have a right to speak to the referee they have a privilege and I suspect that at my lowly level (as indeed my captain Phil confessed), "we do appeal and help the referee ref the game!"

Simple, all the best matches from the players and the spectators point of view have been ones with no appealing and back chat. So, solution to good games is don't allow it (and certainly don't allow a running commentary with the captain).

:eek:fftopic:
 

Dickie E


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agree with Menace.

I'd be going with "Skipper, I can see where you're coming from but I saw it differently."

And, yes, if it became repetitive then tone would harden.

If he goes back to his team and they say "what did the ref say, skip?" I'd prefer he reply "ref agreed it was a close call but saw it differently - them's the breaks" than "ref told me to f*** off and keep my opinion to myself".
 
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