[Law] What's the decision

[Rushforth]

The 2 ARs are behind the posts waiting to rule on the kick at goal. The referee is watching the kicker, then as the ball is kicked, he starts running to follow the kick. The early chasers from red are behind the referee. Who is going to make the call to penalise them if no-one saw the infringement?

George Ayoub

 

[RobLev]

Which Law requires them to stand still? Under 21.7 there are 4 things the opposing team must do, standing still isn't one of them.

Law 21.5(c):

[LAWS]If the kicker indicates to the referee the intent to kick at goal, the opposing team must stand still with their hands by their sides from the time the kicker starts to approach to kick until the ball is kicked.[/LAWS]

 

[ChrisR]

Q1 - come off it - the answer to Q1 is clearly yes, he was trying to stop it crossing the bar (by either knocking/catching it) Then he should have awarded a PK for the 'attempt to interfere', but didn't so not so obvious

Q2 - we know that the referee, from his perspective, DID think white had C&O touched it -- he awarded a scrum. Then he should have awarded a PK for White 4 playing the ball in an offside position. Which he didn't.

The only call, other than a PK on the 5m, is the lineout.

 

[Womble]

IMHO if your going to give anything other than a scrum for the accidental offside, then you should take a long hard look in the mirror and ask yourself " Do I really understand this great game I love "

 

[OB..]

The only call, other than a PK on the 5m, is the lineout.

The referee could not give a scrum or a lineout because time had expired.

 

[crossref]

IMHO if your going to give anything other than a scrum for the accidental offside, then you should take a long hard look in the mirror and ask yourself " Do I really understand this great game I love "

scrum = end of game, which means that white were able to end the game as a result of knocking on deliberately...

 

[L'irlandais]

Sounds like this thread has run it's course.
[laws]5.7 Other time regulations
(e)
If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead. The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an option to the non-infringing team, drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick at goal. If a scrum has to be reset, the scrum has not been completed. If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.[/laws]Sat 24 Oct
Zebre Rugby 19 - 11 Edinburgh Rugby Stadio Sergio Lanfranchi
Referee : Peter Fitzgibbon (Ire)
Not sure a losing bonus point would have changed much for the Scots.

- - - Updated - - -

 

[Rushforth]

"Do I really understand this great game I love"

I don't understand the Laws fully, but I don't spend time looking in the mirror either since I used to be a front row forward.

[LAWS]The referee is the sole judge of fact and of Law during a match. The referee must apply fairly all the Laws of the Game in every match.[/LAWS]

I still had that in my paste buffer from a while ago. Our role is to apply the Laws fairly. 100% accuracy is not expected; all the Laws every match, however, is.

To me, that means consistency - within each match, at any given level, and with other referees at the same (given) level. Not consistency between levels; without even ARs I don't expect to be consistent with elite level referees all the time (so I use ATP to get players in front of the kicker back/slower).

All that said, it is nice to know what the ideal decision according to Law for corner cases is. That there are three potential PK offences means that things are not cut and dried "must be a scrum", perhaps all the more so in the final seconds of the match.

 

[menace]

IMHO if your going to give anything other than a scrum for the accidental offside, then you should take a long hard look in the mirror and ask yourself " Do I really understand this great game I love "

Womble I usually find your comments and opinions valuable and insightful but I find that a rather antagonistic, narrow-minded and elitist comment from someone in the national panel? It's disappointing with all your extra training and coaching you've received that you'd take a swipe like that at your lowly peers who are trying their best to learn the art of refereeing. You've walked our shoes so I'm sure you travelled a learning curve too.

I think we are privileged to have someone like yourself cruising these forums and taking time to offering comment but I would expect better from someone at your level than comments like this. Pity you didn't pass on some of your wealth of knowledge instead in a more measured response to provide some understanding.

 

[ddjamo]

Maybe Womble IS in fact giving good advice? Not the part about the mirror but the fact that if a referee is looking for something to call in this no time on the clock last second ditch effort - that self reflection may be needed. Take it as advise or let it bruise your ego....your choice.

 

[Womble]

Menace, it was not meant to be anything other than thought provoking and as to the reasons I may say what I said, I viewed the video once and once only, that is how I make a call on a Saturday and that is how a decision should be based. time on the clock is irrelevant as we should all make the same call min 1 or min 80, score is irrelevant also for reasons I have discussed before ! For me it looked like the player tried to catch the ball one handed and yes missed it , did it hit the bar or his hand first. Not C & O , did the player in front stop any immediate advantage, ? not for me, scrum call,

I no longer referee and I'm in to my second year of coaching (players) I dont visit this site as often as I should but I do find that you guys are maybe over annalising things. Yes, good for classroom but view the video once and make a call, that's what I would be interested in, then we can discuss reasons for the call xxx

 

[RobLev]

Menace, it was not meant to be anything other than thought provoking and as to the reasons I may say what I said, I viewed the video once and once only, that is how I make a call on a Saturday and that is how a decision should be based. time on the clock is irrelevant as we should all make the same call min 1 or min 80, score is irrelevant also for reasons I have discussed before ! For me it looked like the player tried to catch the ball one handed and yes missed it , did it hit the bar or his hand first. Not C & O , did the player in front stop any immediate advantage, ? not for me, scrum call,

...

Why for accidental offside? There are plenty of infractions in the video, but accidental offside isn't one of them. White #4 had plenty of opportunity to avoid being struck by the ball, and in fact deliberately plays at it.

 

[crossref]

I dont visit this site as often as I should but I do find that you guys are maybe over annalising things.

yup, that's the way we roll

 

[Womble]

Why for accidental offside? There are plenty of infractions in the video, but accidental offside isn't one of them. White #4 had plenty of opportunity to avoid being struck by the ball, and in fact deliberately plays at it.

Not C & O if the ball hit the hand or the bar first, could have been hand then bar ! Does that make white 4 offside ?

 

[crossref]

Not C & O if the ball hit the hand or the bar first, could have been hand then bar ! Does that make white 4 offside ?

it doesn't make any difference, does it?
Either way, once the first defender touches it, the second defender (in front of him) is in an offside position.

 

[RobLev]

Not C & O if the ball hit the hand or the bar first, could have been hand then bar ! Does that make white 4 offside ?

Yes (as crossref points out) - either way white #4 is offside. But in either event how can he be accidentally offside, since that requires him to have been unable to avoid being struck?

 

[Dickie E]

Yes (as crossref points out) - either way white #4 is offside. But in either event how can he be accidentally offside, since that requires him to have been unable to avoid being struck?

I'm OK with the concept of a player being accidentally offside eventhough he intentionally plays the ball provided he could be reasonably unaware that he was offside.

 

[crossref]

I'm OK with the concept of a player being accidentally offside eventhough he intentionally plays the ball provided he could be reasonably unaware that he was offside.

do you think that's the case here?

 

[Dickie E]

do you think that's the case here?

the video is quite unclear for me. Jitterygif or something. I was replying to roblev's thoughts.

 

[menace]

Maybe Womble IS in fact giving good advice? Not the part about the mirror but the fact that if a referee is looking for something to call in this no time on the clock last second ditch effort - that self reflection may be needed. Take it as advise or let it bruise your ego....your choice.

I'm ok with tough love jamo, I find it better than blowing wind...but tough love with a sound reason and/or solution goes so much further than 'you're f@cked in the head'!

Menace, it was not meant to be anything other than thought provoking and as to the reasons I may say what I said, I viewed the video once and once only, that is how I make a call on a Saturday and that is how a decision should be based. time on the clock is irrelevant as we should all make the same call min 1 or min 80, score is irrelevant also for reasons I have discussed before ! For me it looked like the player tried to catch the ball one handed and yes missed it , did it hit the bar or his hand first. Not C & O , did the player in front stop any immediate advantage, ? not for me, scrum call,

I no longer referee and I'm in to my second year of coaching (players) I dont visit this site as often as I should but I do find that you guys are maybe over annalising things. Yes, good for classroom but view the video once and make a call, that's what I would be interested in, then we can discuss reasons for the call xxx

Thanks Womble...my highlighted bit gives what a referee coach should provide the referee to consider and think about to arrive at an answer.

I stand corrected regarding your grade, and apologize for assuming you're still needing to uphold the 'set an example' as a panel ref. (I hoped you left refereeing as your choice!?)

Yes we do over analyse things, but in the comfort of our lounge and the benefit of replays I think it's useful at times and adds to your tool box for when things happen on the field.