Lions Series - Accidental Offsite?

Ian_Cook


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2. If you grasp my team-mate and try to hold him up, there is no Law preventing me from trying to pull him to ground to prevent the formation of a maul.

If you grasp a teammate who has the ball, and is in the grasp of an opponent, haven't you just formed a maul? And, if you drag him to the ground wouldn't that be collapsing?

No. Referees allow a small window of opportunity to bring the ball carrier to ground. IF they didn't, the number of mauls in a game would be huge, and the game would be slowed down to a snail's pace ( I guess that might suit some teams)
 

The Fat


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2. If you grasp my team-mate and try to hold him up, there is no Law preventing me from trying to pull him to ground to prevent the formation of a maul.

If you grasp a teammate who has the ball, and is in the grasp of an opponent, haven't you just formed a maul? And, if you drag him to the ground wouldn't that be collapsing?







You are correct that technically a maul has been formed but as didds points out, we tend to give it a second or so to see if a "tackle occurs" almost immediately so that play can continue and not be an 80 minute scrum expo
 

Ian_Cook


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I suspect that this post is in regard to a tackle and is the tactic where 2 of the ball carrier's team mates follow him to ground to create an inpenetrable mass of flesh - remember "reload"?:

That maybe so, but no torturing of the words in his post leads to that meaning. If he means players following the ball carrier to ground in order to prevent opponents from turning the ball over, then why didn't he say so. We call it "sealing off" and its a PK offence.

I also ran the webpage he quoted (in French) through Google Translate, since my (Swiss based) French isn't good enough. It says nothing about Villepreux saying that it is illegal for a ball carrier to voluntarily go to ground, he just has a bee in his bonnet about "pick and go". He doesn't like it full stop, legal or not.
 

didds

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No. Referees allow a small window of opportunity to bring the ball carrier to ground. IF they didn't, the number of mauls in a game would be huge, and the game would be slowed down to a snail's pace ( I guess that might suit some teams)

And there would undoubtedly be a LOT of PKs for collapsed mauls

didds
 

Rushforth


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And there would undoubtedly be a LOT of PKs for collapsed mauls

Exactly. Ian_Cook's "small window of opportunity" obviously is somewhat different between elite and grassroots level, but my rule of thumb is that unless the maul travels (more than a yard or a metre) to just let the original ball-carrier go to ground, even if that is significantly later than my father's "window of opportunity" would have allowed for.

At grassroots players are often all too willing to go to ground really early, before they even have adequate support in some cases.

Since the topic of this thread seems to be redundant to the current discussion, and since Ian_Cook showed that it was not a C&O offsite by Red, perhaps he or another moderator could do the appropriate things, whatever those may be.
 

didds

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appropriate things?

Mine's a pint.

didds
 

BikingBud


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VM75

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I heard an elite ref (maybe Glenn Jackson?) on the weekend reply to a "wasn't that a maul, sir?" with "it was too dynamic to be a maul". I understood exactly what he meant.


I've amended for them...

[LAWS] [FONT=fs_blakeregular]A maul begins when a [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]undynamic[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular] player carrying the ball is held by one or more [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]undynamic[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular] opponents, and one or more of the ball carrier’s team mates bind on the [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]no longer dynamic[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular] ball carrier . A maul therefore consists, when it begins, of at least three [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]undynamic[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular] players, all on their feet being undynamic in their movements; the ball carrier and one player from each team. All the players involved must be caught in or bound to the undynamic maul and must be on their feet and moving or about to move undynamically towards a goal line. Open dynamic play has ended.[/FONT][/LAWS]

Definitions - Dynamic: tbc
 
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Ian_Cook


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I've amended for them...

[LAWS] [FONT=fs_blakeregular]A maul begins when a [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]undynamic[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular] player carrying the ball is held by one or more [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]undynamic[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular] opponents, and one or more of the ball carrier’s team mates bind on the [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]no longer dynamic[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular] ball carrier . A maul therefore consists, when it begins, of at least three [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]undynamic[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular] players, all on their feet being undynamic in their movements; the ball carrier and one player from each team. All the players involved must be caught in or bound to the undynamic maul and must be on their feet and moving or about to move undynamically towards a goal line. Open dynamic play has ended.[/FONT][/LAWS]

Definitions - Dynamic: tbc

Everyone knows that when the scrum half picks the ball out of the back of a ruck, he is technically infringing Law 16.4 (b) "handling the ball in a ruck". Do we ping him for it? Of course not!

Everyone knows that when a player drop kicks the ball, the ball has gone forward from his hands and struck the ground before he can recover it. Technically, this is a knock forward under Law 12 Definitions... Do we order a scrum when this happens? Of course not!

Now while I get that you were trying to be humorous with your post, the reality is that, if the referee were to call "maul" the instant a team-mate of the ball carrier joins a standing tackle situation, the game would look vastly different to how it looks now. It would bear more resemblance to game of 15 a side all-in wrestling than rugby, so its another example of being careful what you wish for.
 

VM75

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... I get that you were trying to be humorous with your post
:clap:

I was.

But seriously if defenders are unable to be considered 'Maul Creators' merely by virtue of it continuing to move, then it becomes another nail in the defensive toolbox coffin that is labelled RL.

if the referee were to call "maul" the instant a team-mate of the ball carrier joins a standing tackle situation, the game would look vastly different to how it looks now. It would bear more resemblance to game of 15 a side all-in wrestling than rugby, so its another example of being careful what you wish for.

Mauls always used to sort themselves out, the art of removing a 'wrestler' seems to have been lost nowadays, & don't forget a bonafide maul often drags in lots of defending players which - Hey Presto ! , means lots of space to now exploit if you can extract/smuggle the ball & find it.

Instantly? , no not perhaps, but permitting them to be elongated/extended tackle sequences just gives us another collapsed tackle thingy, which can make some games repetitively dull.

More Mauls, IMO good for the game.
 

Dickie E


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VM75;333521 But seriously if defenders are unable to be considered 'Maul Creators' merely by virtue of it continuing to move said:
defensive toolbox[/I] coffin that is labelled RL.

Dynamic, in this context, is different to movement. It means this transitionary phase might just as easily turn into a tackle as a maul.
 
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Ian_Cook


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:clap:

I was.

But seriously if defenders are unable to be considered 'Maul Creators' merely by virtue of it continuing to move, then it becomes another nail in the defensive toolbox coffin that is labelled RL.



Mauls always used to sort themselves out, the art of removing a 'wrestler' seems to have been lost nowadays, & don't forget a bonafide maul often drags in lots of defending players which - Hey Presto ! , means lots of space to now exploit if you can extract/smuggle the ball & find it.

Instantly? , no not perhaps, but permitting them to be elongated/extended tackle sequences just gives us another collapsed tackle thingy, which can make some games repetitively dull.

More Mauls, IMO good for the game.

You're talking about times long past. These days, players are physically stronger and fitter than they were back in the "good" old days. What you are suggesting will result in tackle-maul-unplayable-scrum-tackle-maul-unplayabe-scrum°
 

L'irlandais

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That maybe so, but no torturing of the words in his post leads to that meaning. If he means players following the ball carrier to ground in order to prevent opponents from turning the ball over, then why didn't he say so. We call it "sealing off" and its a PK offence.

I also ran the webpage he quoted (in French) through Google Translate, since my (Swiss based) French isn't good enough. It says nothing about Villepreux saying that it is illegal for a ball carrier to voluntarily go to ground, he just has a bee in his bonnet about "pick and go". He doesn't like it full stop, legal or not.
Hullo, :frown:
My earlier reply was directed at antopodean's misuse of the French expression.
Laissez faire. Let (players) do (as they please.)
This cannot apply to RP's style of reffin'

If you lot rely on Google for translation that explains that then.

A loose translation (paraphrasing ?) of the paragraph goes as follows :

Pierre Villepreux interviewer said:
He calls them (pick and go's) against the spirit of the game, because in a sport played by those on their feet, it is the only case where players voluntarily go to ground (except when diving to score a try). Subsequently, teammates of the ball carrier, carry out illegal clearing out
Maybe he has a bee in his bonnet about pick and go, but bear in mind Pierre Villepreux was a backs coach. In the context of this match he was frustrated to see his club's willingness to create/play snuffed out by repetitive 30, 40 phases of the same limited moves, zero creativity, little thought but to deny the opponents the ball, out of fear their opponents might run with it. For him this tactic is the antithesis of "le beau jeu", i.e. Players thinking on their feet when they have the ball in hand, as opposed to unthinking players going off their feet 30, 40 times. The match in question 2008 H-Cup final is one Munster (the club I support) won
The French fans were upset by the pick and go's, not me. Pierre Villepreux admires the organization of a team like Munster, however he feels strongly that a balance is needed, between this tight organization and the game of movement
 
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didds

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*shrug*

PV needs to have done his homework on Munster, realised their tactics, and found a way to nullify Munster's tactic. Including getting the ball and not letting Munster have it.

didds
 

L'irlandais

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Well Didds,
He is the man who resurrected French Flair, so I suspect he knows a bit about coaching Rugby.

Pierre Villepreux (on ESPN):
"I worked as a PE teacher while I was playing rugby," explains Villepreux. "When I played you didn't have coaches, you had the selectors and the captain. But my profession allowed me to reflect on how we train as rugby players and how to develop the intelligence of the player on the field. I thought a lot about that.
"It wasn't about telling them what to do. It was the opposite of that. But it was getting everyone on the same page in terms of thinking on their feet. Players should be constantly thinking on the field of play, not just programmed with a set-list of moves."


He is very much aware of the need of finding a balance between the game of movement and the set piece.

This is a fascinating conversation between Lynn Evans and Pierre Villepreux and sets the tone for playing the game of rugby in movement.
Coaching in France is built around this philosophy, that of understanding the game and why it works the way it works. In order to help the player to a better understanding of the game, the coach has to first dissect it for himself. In this clip he explains a little his coaching style. A player with good technique but a poor understanding of the game will not get the best out of him/herself on the field. What we would call ability to read the game, come before technique, before the physicality. Even in England rugby is still called the thinking man's game.
 
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didds

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Well Didds,
He is the man who resurrected French Flair, so I suspect he knows a bit about coaching Rugby.

Pierre Villepreux (on ESPN):
"I worked as a PE teacher while I was playing rugby," explains Villepreux. "When I played you didn't have coaches, you had the selectors and the captain. But my profession allowed me to reflect on how we train as rugby players and how to develop the intelligence of the player on the field. I thought a lot about that.
"It wasn't about telling them what to do. It was the opposite of that. But it was getting everyone on the same page in terms of thinking on their feet. Players should be constantly thinking on the field of play, not just programmed with a set-list of moves."


He is very much aware of the need of finding a balance between the game of movement and the set piece.

This is a fascinating conversation between Lynn Evans and Pierre Villepreux and sets the tone for playing the game of rugby in movement.
Coaching in France is built around this philosophy, that of understanding the game and why it works the way it works. In order to help the player to a better understanding of the game, the coach has to first dissect it for himself. In this clip he explains a little his coaching style. A player with good technique but a poor understanding of the game will not get the best out of him/herself on the field. What we would call ability to read the game, come before technique, before the physicality. Even in England rugby is still called the thinking man's game.

I am in truth not doubting PV's ability as a coach - he;'s coaches at levels I could only dream of after all :)

But to sit there and whinge about the other sides tactics when you had every opportunity to know already whet they will be is a bit raw.

And frankly as for "Coaching in France is built around this philosophy, that of understanding the game and why it works the way it works." - they weren't playing a French team. Sounds like sour grapes.

didds
 

liversedge

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But to sit there and whinge about the other sides tactics when you had every opportunity to know already whet they will be is a bit raw.

Agree with you. I'm no fan of endless phases of pick-a-prop-then-belly-flop but its part of the game. And all sides use it at some point, to tidy up, to wear down, to narrow defences.

Its as much a part of the game as passing and kicking.

Mark
 

ChrisR

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First rule of attack - Gain possession. Even pick-'n-go can be vulnerable.
 

Phil E


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First rule of attack - Gain possession.

Surely that's the first rule of defence?

If your attacking you already have possession?
 
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