Bledisloe 3 - the sacrifice of the...

[Dickie E]

To quote Craig Joubert to Drew Mitchell: "I am not responsible for what this does to the game"

no, but the game is responsible for what this does to the game

 

[Ian_Cook]

no, but the game is responsible for what this does to the game

THIS

I have not heard or read of a single fan, pundit or commentator, Kiwi or otherwise, who holds referee Damon Murphy in any way responsible for wrongly red carding* Jordie Barrett. We all know who is responsible for this debacle; those who have lost touch with and made a complete and utter pig's breakfast of the game, and have set up their top referees to fail.... you can find them at 8 – 10 Lower Pembroke Street, Dublin, Ireland.

* And yes, it was wrongly awarded, the Judiciary has made that clear, and since WR has been silent on the issue, that silence means consent, and the decision is final.

 

[OB..]

I showed the clip to my daughter and her husband (another former diving international) and we all agreed that rotation was largely irrelevant. Any rotation starts from your takeoff and when taking off Jordie naturally drives up with his right knee, pushing up with his left leg. As he catches the ball he is leaning back slightly and there is a more or less straight line through his shoulder, hips and legs - both bent at the knee. He then sticks out his right leg while leaving his left leg dangling. There is little indication of any rotation, and this is not the right way to reduce any rotation anyway. If he hadn't contacted anyone else, he would probably have landed slightly off balance on his left foot. If he had just kept his right foot down he would probably have crashed into Koroibete but with less risk of harm.

 

[Dickie E]

O
Richard Loe on Paul Carozza (elbow to the face after the latter scored a try)
Michael Brial on Frank Bunce (a flurry of 9 punches)
David Attoub on Steve Ferris (a vicious eye gouge that got him a 70-week suspension)
Johan Le Roux on Sean Fitzpatrick (Biting his ear, 26 weeks)

and Nepo Laulala not far behind

 

[Ian_Cook]

and Nepo Laulala not far behind

True. We can't get them all.. but we could add Danny Grewcock, Bakkies Botha, Scott Sio, Troy Flavell, Corne Krige, James Dalton, Sekope Kepu etc....

 

[Arabcheif]

OB - Yes this in absolute spades. There's no reason to lift his foot up the way he did, other than to discourage an incoming tackle when he landed. Perhaps that's a bit cynical on my part, but like you said, the rotation was irrelevant. I'm a ref that will specifically look to reduce a sanction (card, report) as I have the attitude "no-one goes out to deliberately injure an opponent" and I don't want to spoil someone's hobby that they love doing. But you do have to look at this incident. He was perfectly well balanced and under control. Like OB and myself has advised, he may have landed a bit off balance but would've been fine (until the tackle).

 

[Ian_Cook]

There's no reason to lift his foot up the way he did, other than to discourage an incoming tackle when he landed.... the rotation was irrelevant.

Hmm, that is not what I see

If that is not his body rotating backwards, then explain what you see here?

If rotation is irrelevant, and he doesn't put his leg out, what else would you expect him to do to avoid landing on his back?

 

[OB..]

Hmm, that is not what I see

If that is not his body rotating backwards, then explain what you see here?

If rotation is irrelevant, and he doesn't put his leg out, what else would you expect him to do to avoid landing on his back?

A diver/trampolinist/gymnast tucks for fast rotation and straightens out to slow it down. Jordie is never in a tucked position. In straightening out you need to use both legs, not just one.

If he has any rotation it is a very small reverse spin, and he cannot change the direction of the spin once he has taken off.

My expert witnesses (both rugby enthusiasts as well) are adamant that sticking out his right leg serves no useful purpose - to obtain any useful effect you need to use both legs together.

 

[Ian_Cook]

A diver/trampolinist/gymnast tucks for fast rotation and straightens out to slow it down. Jordie is never in a tucked position. In straightening out you need to use both legs, not just one.

My expert witnesses (both rugby enthusiasts as well) are adamant that sticking out his right leg serves no useful purpose - to obtain any useful effect you need to use both legs together.

Sorry, but the highlighted parts are pure rubbish. That might be what divers actually do, but that does not mean it is the only way to do it. They are going for symmetry and artistic style - sticking one leg out would look ugly, and they don't have a hard landing to deal with at the end.

I don't care what your expert witnesses say, they are simply wrong, but lets just assume that they are correct for a moment. How then do you explain that his rotation slowed significantly when he put his leg out in the last frame of the animation before his foot made contact with Korobete's face? Magic? Divine intervention? Perhaps he momentarily warped into a parallel dimension where the Laws of Physics are not the same?

ANY part of a rotating mass moved away from the centre of rotation will slow the rotation down - that is an irrefutable Law of Physics - L=mrv

If he has any rotation it is a very small reverse spin, and he cannot change the direction of the spin once he has taken off.

He doesn't have to change the direction of the spin, he only has to slow it down enough that he doesn't rotate right over and land on his back, or worse. I have been through that video frame-by-frame. In the animation, these five frames are evenly spaced,and he he has rotated through about 35° in less than a second. At that rate, if unchecked he would continue to rotate until he lands on his shoulders/neck area.

 

[Zebra1922]

I see no reason for his leg to be in a position where he strikes another player in the head. If he chooses to put his leg there, or his leg ends up there as a result of how he has jumped, he accepts the risk of a sending off if he contacts with the head of another player. I don’t care if their is intent of not, his leg is in a dangerous position to opponents, and is there purely due to his own actions. He therefore has to accept any consequences of his jump. It’s potentially dangerous, in this example was actually dangerous, and should be a RC.

Lots of questions as to how it impacts grass roots. I don’t think it does. I referee what I see, if I see this in Sunday it’s a RC. If any sanctions committee choose to overrule my decision so be it.

 

[OB..]

Ian - going from your third frame to your last, Jordie goes from nearly straight, but with knees bent back to a position with one leg moving to a more tucked position. That is the opposite of what is needed to slow down a reverse rotation.

I don't actually think the physics of rotation are very significant here, since any rotation is very minor.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Ian - going from your third frame to your last, Jordie goes from nearly straight, but with knees bent back to a position with one leg moving to a more tucked position. That is the opposite of what is needed to slow down a reverse rotation.

I don't actually think the physics of rotation are very significant here, since any rotation is very minor.

Well, I disagree. I see clear, obvious rotation, and I see that rotation stop when he extends his leg. What I see comports perfectly with the Laws of Physics. It seems that what I see is the same as what the judiciary saw. So be it.

 

[Ian_Cook]

The dangers of generalising...

I see no reason for his leg to be in a position where he strikes another player in the head. If he chooses to put his leg there, or his leg ends up there, he accepts the risk of a sending off if he contacts with the head of another player. I don’t care if their is intent of not, his leg is in a dangerous position to opponents, and is there purely due to his own actions. He therefore has to accept any consequences.

 

[Zebra1922]

The dangers of generalising...

I have no idea what you are trying to demonstrate here. In this instance, there IS a reason for his leg to be there, he is attempting to kick a ball. With the jump, his leg is in an unnatural position, raised as a defensive measure. If he chooses to jump like this he accepts the risk of RC if he makes contact with another player.

You’re contorting yourself through all angles to justify something that is not correct. His leg didn’t end up there due to physics.

 

[OB..]

You slow down rotation by going from a tucked to a straight position.

When he catches the ball, Jodie is almost in a straight position except for his knees being bent back.

Raising a leg is moving back nearer a closed position.

 

[Jz558]

My concern is that whilst those in the professional game can fee confident that due process was followed and that both the referee and disciplinary committe were correct given how they viewed the incident, those outside the professional game can feel little of that confidence. I suspect it would be a brave referee at grass roots level who, faced with similar circumstances, ruled that accidental and played on.

 

[crossref]

My concern is that whilst those in the professional game can fee confident that due process was followed and that both the referee and disciplinary committe were correct given how they viewed the incident, those outside the professional game can feel little of that confidence. I suspect it would be a brave referee at grass roots level who, faced with similar circumstances, ruled that accidental and played on.

yes. If you follow as a rule of thumb: boot to the face = RC, I don't think you'll go far wrong with the disciplinary panel, or indeed with the players on the field around you (or even with the player receiving the RC!)

 

[thepercy]

Watch this girl trampolinist at the Rio Olympics from about 3:00 in the video, and I'll come to your swing example after that

See how she rotates faster when her legs and/or arms are tucked in and slower when extended out. This doesn't happen because she throws her legs and arms "forwards", it happens because she is extending her limbs "outwards", away from her centre of rotation to slow down and inwards, closer to her centre of rotation to rotate faster.

What is happening is that she is repositioning some of her mass. That mass has a certain momentum (called "angular momentum" because it is not in a straight line). It maintains that momentum when you move it closer or further away from the centre of rotation. When you move it closer it still has the same momentum, but now it is covering the same distance on a much smaller circle than it was previously - the momentum cannot increase, so the rotation rate increases to conserve the momentum - when the mass is moved outwards, again, the momentum cannot decrease, so the mass has to travel a larger circle, and the rotation rate slows. This called conservation of angular momentum

I can only have one video per post, so I'll answer the swing question in the next post...

JBs legs were already extended, changing the angle they were extended wouldn't stop his rotation, only help to protect himself because he was going to get throttled as soon as he landed. So he kicked his opponent in the face, recklessly.

 

[thepercy]

Revised 9.11 [LAWS]Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others, unless they have jumped poorly and are off balance, and their shirt color is mostly black, then this law can be disregarded.
[/LAWS]

 

[Ian_Cook]

You slow down rotation by going from a tucked to a straight position.

Wrong. Rotation is slowed down by moving mass away from the centre of rotation

When he catches the ball, Jodie is almost in a straight position except for his knees being bent back.

"almost straight" is like "almost pregnant"

Raising a leg is moving back nearer a closed position.

Again! The raising of the leg is irrelevant its moving of mass away from the centre of rotation that is the key. Watch the video againt. HIS ROTATION STOPPED. Explain why?