[Scrum] 2016 LAW TRIALS - 20.5 throwing into the scrum

[Ian_Cook]

Proposal
The rationale is that the scrum-half (No.9) may receive a signal from his hooker (No.2) that the hooker is ready.
This may encourage the No.2 to prepare to strike for the ball.
The proposal is intended to give the advantage to the team throwing-in the ball.
The scrum must be stable prior to feed, and the ball fed without delay in accordance with current Law.

Justification
See 150210 LW Law Amendment Union Responses with Outcomes
Proposal 76
SSG vote was 5:1 in favour of this proposal but there was good debate

NOTE: (I will try to find this document and post it later)

 

[Dixie]

Odd. There is a rationale for a proposal, but no proposal. Ian - did you miss something in the cut and paste?

 

[ChrisR]

Odd. There is a rationale for a proposal, but no proposal. Ian - did you miss something in the cut and paste?

Ian didn't miss anything, this is how it is in the trials document from WR.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Odd. There is a rationale for a proposal, but no proposal. Ian - did you miss something in the cut and paste?

I think it could be in the document "150210 LW Law Amendment Union Responses with Outcomes" but I cannot find this document. It does not appear to be anywhere on the WR website.

 

[Dixie]

I think it could be in the document "150210 LW Law Amendment Union Responses with Outcomes" but I cannot find this document. It does not appear to be anywhere on the WR website.

let's just wait for the secret email to surface

 

[Taff]

Proposal
The rationale is that the scrum-half (No.9) may receive a signal from his hooker (No.2) that the hooker is ready.
This may encourage the No.2 to prepare to strike for the ball.

Am I being thick? Haven't we got this already?

 

[buff]

Am I being thick? Haven't we got this already?

I am wondering the same thing. Are they formally recognising the practice in law?

 

[Taff]

I am wondering the same thing. Are they formally recognising the practice in law?

Possibly, but if that is the case, then why now? :chin:

There is nothing in the laws preventing the Hooker giving a signal that he's ready, and it's been common practice for at least 40 years. It's probably been going for far longer, but I only started playing rugby 40 years ago and as far as I know every Hooker did it.

 

[Pegleg]

They have to tell modern hookers and coaches as it is so long since there has been any need to hook or signal.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Looking at this trial

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?19445-2016-LAW-TRIALS-20-1-(g)-FORMING-A-SCRUM

• The referee will call “crouch” and then “bind”.
• In the “crouch” position the front rows will be shoulder to shoulder with their opponents (having passively engaged) stable and supporting their own weight without pushing.
• On the “bind” call the props will position their arms in the correct ‘bind’ position. [The correct ‘bind’ is as outlined in current Law 20.1 (g)]
• the front rows (+ back 5 players) will tighten binds and set themselves for the throw-in.
• The ball is then thrown-in without delay, Law 20.5.

I wonder if what this is all about is WR dispensing with the "set" call and the prompt by the referee to throw the ball in, allowing the SH to feed the ball when he and his hooker are ready, without a call from the referee?

I know that 20.5 says "The scrum-half must throw-in the ball when told to do so by the referee", but it has said that since at least the 2003 LotG, a long time before CBSY9. That was a conditional statement at that time; the SH didn't have to wait for a call from the referee, but had to get it in if the referee told him to... a call get on with it if he was delaying.

I think this is a gradual return full circle to player managed engagement, and if so, it is a massive admission by WR that referee managed engagement was a big mistake.

 

[Paule23]

What sort of a signal can the hooker do from the middle of a scrum without the opposition being aware of it? Do they wiggle a finger? Having never played front row I'm not really up to speed with all the skills involved, including signals!

 

[Ian_Cook]

What sort of a signal can the hooker do from the middle of a scrum without the opposition being aware of it? Do they wiggle a finger? Having never played front row I'm not really up to speed with all the skills involved, including signals!

In my day, the hooker would tap the loosehead prop on his side/back with his left hand. This was right in front of his SH's face, and easy for him to see.


Arrowed is the left arm of the French hooker in the 1995 Six Nations match between France and Ireland

https://youtu.be/XOg7aR5sHts?t=114


Watch him in this video at 2:01 and again at 2:24, and then watch the arm of the Scotland hooker in the scrum against Italy at 2:41