[In-goal] 22.4(g) still possible w/ new 2017 trails

[CrouchTPEngage]

Let me just paste in these new words from the law book ....
If a player jumps from the playing area and knocks the ball back into the playing area (or if that player catches the ball and throws it back into the playing area) before landing in touch or touch-in-goal, play continues regardless of whether the ball reaches the plane of touch.

Clear now ?

 

[ChuckieB]

. He suffers no penalty if he is unable to do s[/B]o."

I don't follow. His team loses the throw-in if he touches it.

to clarify as it was connected to another post:

If he jumps from FoP and subsequently lands in touch not having successfully pulled it off (the ball having crossed the plane of touch, as he tried to do so),why should he lose the entitlement? He could have just left it? This s not what WR want to promote?

 

[Treadmore]

interesting debate - though disappointing that the law trial isn't clearer!

However, nevermind the law trial for a moment, I had thought that a knock-on was limited to the playing area but there is the suggestion here it can happen (in probably rare circumstances) in the playing enclosure. That true?

 

[Christy]

interesting debate - though disappointing that the law trial isn't clearer!

However, nevermind the law trial for a moment, I had thought that a knock-on was limited to the playing area but there is the suggestion here it can happen (in probably rare circumstances) in the playing enclosure. That true?

Hi tread more .
for me , only a knock on if ball re enters field of play .
Forward not backwards .
So if ball knocked back wards back into field of play from out side touch ,,play on .
If ball gets knocked forward into field of play from out side touch ,, that is where the knock on / forward pass would get pulled .

 

[Treadmore]

Hi tread more .
for me , only a knock on if ball re enters field of play .
Forward not backwards .
So if ball knocked back wards back into field of play from out side touch ,,play on .
If ball gets knocked forward into field of play from out side touch ,, that is where the knock on / forward pass would get pulled .

Ok, thanks, and for a ball that had crossed the plane of touch and a player not grounded in the playing area, I think that is what I would have said too. But that seems counter to what CTPE and damo have said. i.e player in the air touches ball that has passed plane of touch and it goes forward (hits ground beyond touch or other player beyond touch) is to be considered a knock-on.

 

[ChrisR]

Hi tread more .
for me , only a knock on if ball re enters field of play .
Forward not backwards .
So if ball knocked back wards back into field of play from out side touch ,,play on .
If ball gets knocked forward into field of play from out side touch ,, that is where the knock on / forward pass would get pulled .

If a player, in the FoP, knocks on and the ball goes directly into touch you would not consider that a KO?

 

[Christy]

If a player, in the FoP, knocks on and the ball goes directly into touch you would not consider that a KO?

Hi chris r
Of course i would consider that scenario a knock on , what makes you suggest i wouldnt . ???

The discussion is about ball in air over over touch line .
Player either in field of play & catches ball over touch line & knocks ball back into play ( if forwards its a knock on ) if back wards its play on

Or if player jumps in air over touch line , whilst in air knocks ball back in to playing field ( if it lands in field forward its a knock on ) if it goes backwards & lands in field ,,its play on . ( providing player is in air & not landed ) .

 

[Treadmore]

If a player, in the FoP, knocks on and the ball goes directly into touch you would not consider that a KO?

Yes because player is in FoP.

It was said earlier that a ball in the air above the playing perimeter could be knocked-on without the ball re-entering the FoP by a player not in the FoP either (in air in the example). Something I'd never considered previously and was seeking confirmation.

 

[damo]

to clarify as it was connected to another post:

If he jumps from FoP and subsequently lands in touch not having successfully pulled it off (the ball having crossed the plane of touch, as he tried to do so),why should he lose the entitlement? He could have just left it? This s not what WR want to promote?

Why?

Because he is the last person to touch the ball before it goes into touch.

Surely that is enough?

 

[damo]

Hi chris r
Of course i would consider that scenario a knock on , what makes you suggest i wouldnt . ???

The discussion is about ball in air over over touch line .
Player either in field of play & catches ball over touch line & knocks ball back into play ( if forwards its a knock on ) if back wards its play on

Or if player jumps in air over touch line , whilst in air knocks ball back in to playing field ( if it lands in field forward its a knock on ) if it goes backwards & lands in field ,,its play on . ( providing player is in air & not landed ) .

There is no difference to the situation of a knock on in the Field of Play and a knock on of a player who has jumped from the field of play to try and retrieve a ball that has gone over the plane of the sideline. Both times the ball is still in play.

If he tries to knock it back in play but instead it it goes forward and bounces over the touchline it is the same as if he'd knocked the ball directly into touch. Both times it's the other team get the option of a scrum or lineout.

 

[ChrisR]

Christy & Treadmore, the reason I asked "If a player, in the FoP, knocks on and the ball goes directly into touch you would not consider that a KO?" is to place the 'player in the air' scenario in the same context.

The ball that crosses the plane of touch is still in play until it strikes an object or player in contact with the ground. So the player leaping from the FoP who knocks the ball forward is technically the same as the player standing in the FoP. If the ball lands in the FoP it's just a KO, if it lands in touch it's a KO or line-out to the opponent.

If the ball doesn't go forward but lands in touch then the player who leaped from the FoP is deemed to have put it into touch even though the ball had crossed the plane of touch. This last point could be a debatable point but I think it's consistent with the law.

If the player is standing in touch and knocks the ball forward then there is not a KO as the ball-in-touch occurs first.

 

[Christy]

​hi chris r ,, we were told below in black ,

christy & treadmore, the reason i asked "if a player, in the fop, knocks on and the ball goes directly into touch you would not consider that a ko?" is to place the 'player in the air' scenario in the same context.

The ball that crosses the plane of touch is still in play until it strikes an object or player in contact with the ground. So the player leaping from the fop who knocks the ball forward is technically the same as the player standing in the fop. If the ball lands in the fop it's just a ko, if it lands in touch it's a ko or line-out to the opponent
. A player who has knocked / slapped a ball that is in the air , that has already crossed the touch line ..if arriving player in air or with both feet in field of play has only slapped ball , he has not taken ball out . There for if ball doesnt re enter field of play , its still his line out . ( its only a knock on if ball re enters field in a forward motion )

if the ball doesn't go forward but lands in touch then the player who leaped from the fop is deemed to have put it into touch even though the ball had crossed the plane of touch. This last point could be a debatable point but i think it's consistent with the law.

no , this is not correct .slapping a ball is not taking owner ship .
again . If player with both feet in play catches the ball that has crossed field of play & then same player drops ball whilst it still out side field of play ,,then that player has deemed to of taken ball out & its opposition line out .



same scenario with both feet in play , if a player manages to slap/ knock / hit ball and it doesnt re enter field of play ,,= he has not taken ball out .

Same scenario with both feet in field of play , if a player juggles ball whilst trying to knock / slap / hit ball back into field of play = he took it out & opposition line out ( or scrum if ball re enters field from a juggle only and ball re enters field of play in a forward motion ) .

A player who leaps from field of play into touch . With ball already over touch line & player still in air (ball hanging in air )
if ball re enters field in proper manner , as in backward its play on . ( whether he catches & throws or slaps it )
if ball re enters field forward motion , its knock on & scrum opposition .

If ball goes forwards or backwards but does not re enter field of play .
Its still his line out ( the guy who jumped )



if the player is standing in touch and knocks the ball forward then there is not a ko as the ball-in-touch occurs first.

 

[ChuckieB]

Christy & Treadmore, the reason I asked "If a player, in the FoP, knocks on and the ball goes directly into touch you would not consider that a KO?" is to place the 'player in the air' scenario in the same context.

The ball that crosses the plane of touch is still in play until it strikes an object or player in contact with the ground. So the player leaping from the FoP who knocks the ball forward is technically the same as the player standing in the FoP. If the ball lands in the FoP it's just a KO, if it lands in touch it's a KO or line-out to the opponent.

If the ball doesn't go forward but lands in touch then the player who leaped from the FoP is deemed to have put it into touch even though the ball had crossed the plane of touch. This last point could be a debatable point but I think it's consistent with the law.

If the player is standing in touch and knocks the ball forward then there is not a KO as the ball-in-touch occurs first.

with such an interpretation, a player receives no reward for attempting the ball in by leaping in the air to try and recover it and knock it back so that it stays in play , having crossed the plane of touch, He is instead penalised with a loss of possession.

If that is people's interpretiion, I think that it is contrary to what WR were trying to promote, encouraging the ball to be kept in play. Recommend him not to bother trying.

Has the ball gone into touch? Yes. it has crossed the plane and has either been grounded or touched by a player in touch. Who put it there? A player jumping from FOP to do his best to keep it in, but not quite making it. What do we do? we take away his possession for giving it his best shot. Crazy in my view but I am a lone voice on this one where the law is not explicit enough. It only deals with players with their feet in play or a ball ultimatelybeing kept in play.

 

[ChuckieB]

By the same token:

https://youtu.be/TSCC9iHV7cM

had he not had a toe in the in goal area and had he not managed to pull it back and it had actually gone forward instead, it would have been a knock on?

 

[ChrisR]

Hi Christy, let us say a player jumps, catches a ball that has crossed the plane and attempts to throw it back into the field of play. If he succeeds we play on unless he throw it forward in which case he concedes a scrum.

WR has modified the laws to allow this by not considering the ball to be in touch until the ball contacts a player or object grounded in touch. So, if the ball is in play while he is in the air then if a. he goes to ground before passing it or b. plays the ball such that it lands in touch then the ball is in touch last played by that player. Should we consider the outcome to change because he slapped instead of catching?

ChuckieB, rugby is a game of risk and reward. Don't get caught up in engineering the laws to take the risk away.

 

[ChrisR]

Re. risk/reward for leaping from the FoP to play a ball back into the FoP that had crossed the plane of touch.

An opponents PK to touch. Go for it, nothing to lose. They already have the distance and throw. Small chance that he knocks-on to give a scrum option.

A teammate cross-kicks and the ball is going to touch. Go for it, the throw is already lost. And, if the kick was in front the 22 (and the ball would be out on the fly), then distance is lost too.

Opponent kicks to touch from in front of his 22. Let it go or catch in touch. You get the throw and they lose the distance. No-brainer.

Opponent kicks to touch from behind his 22. Let it go or catch in touch for the QTI.

So . . . . most game situations are probably poor risks.