22 drop out/scrum/something else entirely...

[Phil E]

Moving ball strikes object beyond DBL. Option. If the player has foot on/beyond DBL then just putting his foot on the moving ball meets the requirement as he is not grounding it.

Ground the moving ball. 22 DO, he made it dead in goal.

Stationary ball? 22 DO, he put it dead.

The law says he has to pick it up. Shall we just stick to the law as written and stop making it up?

[LAWS]22.2 PICKING UP THE BALL
Picking up the ball from the ground is not grounding it. A player may pick up the ball in the
in-goal and ground it elsewhere in the in-goal

22.9 DEFENDING PLAYER IN IN-GOAL
(a) A defending player who has part of one foot in in-goal is considered to have both
goal.
(b) If a player with one or both feet on or behind the goal line, picks up the ball, which
stationary within the field of play, that player has picked up the ball in the field of
thereby that player has taken the ball into in-goal.
(c) If a player with one or both feet on or behind the goal line picks up the ball, which
motion within the field of play, that player has picked up the ball within in-goal.[/LAWS]

 

[OB..]

The law says he has to pick it up. Shall we just stick to the law as written and stop making it up?

Spoilsport!

 

[FlipFlop]

What happens if the player catches it, either direct or on the bounce? The players hasn't "picked it up", so....

epper:

 

[ChrisR]

Phil E, I'm not making this up, just filling in the blanks left in law.

A player stands with one foot on or beyond the DBL (Dead Ball Line). The ball strikes him, he catches it or he picks it up. Are you saying that the ball has gone dead only in the last instance? Then how do you rule on the other two?

Ahhh, yes, pretend it didn't happen coz it wasn't stated exactly as in the good book.

The critical element is not whether he picks it up but whether it was staionary or moving.

 

[Phil E]

The critical element is not whether he picks it up but whether it was staionary or moving.

But that critical element ONLY applies if he picks it up.

 

[ChrisR]

A player stands with one foot on or beyond the DBL (Dead Ball Line). The ball strikes him, he catches it or he picks it up. Are you saying that the ball has gone dead only in the last instance? Then how do you rule on the other two?

Mate, you're ducking the question. How do you rule?

 

[Phil E]

A player stands with one foot on or beyond the DBL (Dead Ball Line). The ball strikes him, he catches it or he picks it up. Are you saying that the ball has gone dead only in the last instance? Then how do you rule on the other two?

Mate, you're ducking the question. How do you rule?

If he catches or picks up a moving ball, it has gone straight out.
If it's caught it can't be 'not moving' so that that one done with.
If he picks it up and it's not moving, he has taken it back/in.
If he just dabs down on it, stands on it, falls on it, then he has made the ball dead....no options.

 

[ChrisR]

If he catches or picks up a moving ball, it has gone straight out. Therefore 'option'.
If it's caught it can't be 'not moving' so that that one done with.
If he picks it up and it's not moving, he has taken it back/in. Agreed, 22 DO.
If he just dabs down on it, stands on it, falls on it, then he has made the ball dead....no options.

No, different strokes. "Dabbing down" I assume you to mean grounding with hand or arm as the ball is in contact with the ground (covered in law) and therefore the ball has not gone beyond the DBL so 22 DO. Playing the ball with his foot does not ground it but as the player had a foot in goal then the ball is considered to be beyond the DBL. That is why moving or stationary ball is relevant. Stationary, then taken back by the player and a 22 DO. Moving, it's the same as striking an object or player beyond goal so it's option.

You may not agree but that is my interpretation of the law and I'm not "making it up".

 

[Phil E]

Playing the ball with his foot does not ground it

On that point you are correct, my bad.

 

[Taff]

... Moving, it's the same as striking an object or player beyond goal so it's option.

Is it?

A player standing touch in-goal can still score a try provided he doesn't pick up the ball. Whether the ball is moving or not is irrelevant surely. :chin:

 

[Dave Sherwin]

So to take the scenario I had, which was identical to the Ben Foden scenario from three or four seasons ago: a player lies full length on the floor with his feet over the dead ball line and waits for the ball to roll into his hands, which it does. Do I wait to see whether he picks it up (perhaps by standing up) or dabs it down? I was happy with calling this kicked through goal at the time, but perhaps I have learned a lesson and should have waited to see what he then did with it.

 

[ChrisR]

Is it?

A player standing touch in-goal can still score a try provided he doesn't pick up the ball. Whether the ball is moving or not is irrelevant surely. :chin:

Yes, that is a specific exception and to score the ball must be on the ground and he must only apply downward pressure. He can't catch it off the ground then ground it.

Let's say the ball bounces in goal and a player, with a foot over the DBL, in one downward motion, palms the ball out of the air and grounds it. This is not a try because the contact with the ball occurred before the grounding, not simultaneously.

 

[ChrisR]

So to take the scenario I had, which was identical to the Ben Foden scenario from three or four seasons ago: a player lies full length on the floor with his feet over the dead ball line and waits for the ball to roll into his hands, which it does. Do I wait to see whether he picks it up (perhaps by standing up) or dabs it down? I was happy with calling this kicked through goal at the time, but perhaps I have learned a lesson and should have waited to see what he then did with it.

No need to wait. By allowing the ball to roll into his hands and holding it as it contacts the ground he has grounded it (22.1(a)). No requirement for downward pressure, no dabbing needed. Unless he lifts the ball immediately. Then he has picked it up (22.2) and, as it was rolling he will get the option.

 

[RobLev]

No need to wait. By allowing the ball to roll into his hands and holding it as it contacts the ground he has grounded it (22.1(a)). No requirement for downward pressure, no dabbing needed. Unless he lifts the ball immediately. Then he has picked it up (22.2) and, as it was rolling he will get the option.

I disagree with your thinking, although not the outcome (assuming that the attackers kicked it to him from the field of play).

He is not holding the ball at the outset; so by 22.1(a), if he is to ground the ball without downward pressure, he has to take possession first - "hold it" - and then he must touch the ground with it. Your interpretation seems to leave 22.2 with no room to operate, and gives the referee more decisions to make than are necessary.

As the player's feet are beyond the DBL, he is beyond the DBL. The ball has struck him, he has not picked it up; so 22.11(d) applies and it's gone dead beyond the DBL without reference to 22.9(d), so he gets the option:

[LAWS]When the ball touches the touch-in-goal line or the dead ball line, or touches...anyone beyond those lines, the ball becomes dead[/LAWS]

It seems to me that 22.11(d) explains why 22.9(d) and (e) exist, and why they have different outcomes. A stationary ball that is picked up cannot be said to have struck the player picking it up, so the player picking it up is the one who has made the ball dead; whereas a moving ball being picked up by a player behind the DBL could be said to have struck him, and so he did not make it dead.

 

[ChrisR]

Roblev, nice bit of logic. And simpler. You get my vote.

 

[Taff]

.. As the player's feet are beyond the DBL, he is beyond the DBL. The ball has struck him, he has not picked it up; so 22.11(d) applies and it's gone dead beyond the DBL ...

Except that's not strictly true, is it? A player straddling the touchline can slap the ball and play continues provided the ball hasn't crossed the vertical "plane of touch".

Why doesn't the same apply to the DBL?

 

[ChrisR]

Lets see, standing on the DBL, slapping the ball back into goal? Doh! Intentional knock-on, possible PT and YC. I wonder they don't do it more often.

 

[The Fat]

Except that's not strictly true, is it? A player straddling the touchline can slap the ball and play continues provided the ball hasn't crossed the vertical "plane of touch".

Why doesn't the same apply to the DBL?

It does.
Discussed this late last year after SArefs got clarification from IRB re DBL to be treated the same as touch-in-goal line.

 

[ChrisR]

Yes, my last post only considered a defending player playing the ball in goal but an attacking player could save a ball from going dead.

 

[Taff]

Yes, my last post only considered a defending player playing the ball in goal but an attacking player could save a ball from going dead.

So you agree that an attacking player CAN straddle the DBL and tap the ball back before it crosses the vertical plane of touch.