[Law] Accidental offside

[ChrisR]

I'm surprised that this hasn't come up. Here's the video from England v. Ireland

https://youtu.be/r1zhln8ExWI?t=1137

Clearly an accidental offside but should play have been stopped for the Ireland scrum?

I think not. Play should only have been stopped if England gain an advantage. Clearly not the case here.

Here's the law:

[LAWS]2017 Law 11.6 ACCIDENTAL OFFSIDE
(a) When an offside player cannot avoid being touched by the ball or by a team-mate carrying it, the player is accidentally offside. If the player’s team gains no advantage from this, play continues. If the player’s team gains an advantage, a scrum is formed with the opposing team throwing in the ball

2018 Law 10
5. A player is accidentally offside if the player cannot avoid being touched by the ball or by a team-mate who is carrying the ball. Only if the offending team gains an advantage should play stop. Sanction: Scrum.
[/LAWS]

 

[crossref]

Yes, very wierd decision .
Did Ireland commit a subsequent offence ? Ko or something so no advantage ?

 

[crossref]

Or perhaps he figured England had ended up with possession so had got an advantage

 

[DocY]

Ah yes, I remember that. The ref doesn't refer to an infringement (though how the Irish player came up with the ball was suspect) but he'd already blown his whistle by then and should have at least waited until the ball came out. In fact, he could probably have waited until Ireland crossed the line and gone to the TMO.

I'll put it down to a brain fart.

 

[ChrisR]

The way the law is written unless England gain an advantage the 'accidental offsides' should be refereed as if it didn't happen, not as an advantage situation.

And Ireland come up with the ball and would have scored.

 

[crossref]

I agree

 

[Taff]

The way the law is written unless England gain an advantage the 'accidental offsides' should be refereed as if it didn't happen, not as an advantage situation.

Nicely put; a right little nugget of advice. :clap:

... I'll put it down to a brain fart.

Easily done, but I suspect you may be right. :chin:

 

[ChuckieB]

As soon as England recovered possession, albeit momentarily, there is no option to let advantage continue.

 

[DocY]

As soon as England recovered possession, albeit momentarily, there is no option to let advantage continue.

Why on Earth not?

Ignoring Chris's observation that it's not an advantage situation anyway - let's just say you were playing advantage - you have a bit of a mess with Ireland moving forward. At least wait and see if the ball comes out with it, or who comes out with it.

Ireland could have potentially scored from this passage of play - are you saying you would have disallowed a try because England momentarily took possession of the ball?

 

[ChuckieB]

Why on Earth not?

Ignoring Chris's observation that it's not an advantage situation anyway - let's just say you were playing advantage - you have a bit of a mess with Ireland moving forward. At least wait and see if the ball comes out with it, or who comes out with it.

Ireland could have potentially scored from this passage of play - are you saying you would have disallowed a try because England momentarily took possession of the ball?

So so it is not an advantage situation and at the same time it is an accidental offside which requires you to act in accordance with the laws and that is to award a scrum because the offending side has gained an advantage by retaining possession of the ball.

 

[crossref]

I don't think England gained an advantage from that ball hitting Haskell.
I think that all the England players would have seen that whistle as one hell of a let off !

 

[DocY]

So so it is not an advantage situation and at the same time it is an accidental offside which requires you to act in accordance with the laws and that is to award a scrum because the offending side has gained an advantage by retaining possession of the ball.

I think that shows a distinct lack of empathy - England wanted the ball thumped down field. Even if they'd had clean possession (which would be far more than they did have), they'd have just kicked it again, but from further back.

But either way, don't blow you whistle (except for foul play) before seeing which way the ball is coming back from a breakdown. Especially when there's a clear contest for the ball.

 

[ChrisR]

As soon as England recovered possession, albeit momentarily, there is no option to let advantage continue.

ChuckieB, read the law references I posted in the OP. Unless England gained an advantage then "Play on!". That is, did they gain an advantage from the accidental offsides?

Hell, no! They ended up 20m further back with a player isolated being swarmed by three Irish who stole the ball and were headed for 5 points (and then 5 pints) when the whistle blew.

It was a monumental brain fart that was barely mentioned.

 

[Taff]

So so it is not an advantage situation and at the same time it is an accidental offside which requires you to act in accordance with the laws and that is to award a scrum because the offending side has gained an advantage by retaining possession of the ball.

Yes England retained possession BUT in a far worse position and the man who had possession was just about to be mugged for it. I bet he was glad when the whistle went. :Nerv:

... It was a monumental brain fart that was barely mentioned.

My guess is that the vast majority of players, spectators and commentators don't know the exact wording. I know loads of people who think that every accidental offside (however trivial) needs to be blown.

 

[ChuckieB]

Would you guess Angus Gardener didn't know the wording? He let things go until England recovered the ball

There may be some referees, I doubt many, that would have been prepared to or even quick enough to wave play on at the point the ball came off JH.

In the absence of an immediate call to wave play on and then England's momentary recovery of the ball, I see it as empathetic to have called the AO.

 

[ChrisR]

I see it as empathetic to have called the AO.

??????

To whom or what?

 

[DocY]

Ask yourself two things when playing advantage:

1. would the non-infringing team prefer to go back for the scrum/penalty?

2. are you unfairly advantaging the non-infringing team?

If you answer 'no' to both those, don't blow your whistle.

And I think the answers in this case are pretty obvious, personally.

 

[Taff]

Would you guess Angus Gardener didn't know the wording? He let things go until England recovered the ball

I'm sure that in a classroom situation Angus Gardner knows the wording perfectly, but in the heat of the moment I think it was a mistake. It would be interesting to know if asked would he do the same again; I suspect he would have played it differently. Hey, nobody's perfect - even Nigel Owens makes mistakes.

 

[ChrisR]

This is an unconventional advantage situation.

After a "normal" infringement you allow play to continue (advantage over) if the non-offending side gain the advantage. If they don't, play stops.

In "accidental offsides" play continues if the offending side don't gain advantage.

There's a significant difference here.

 

[crossref]

This is an unconventional advantage situation.

After a "normal" infringement you allow play to continue (advantage over) if the non-offending side gain the advantage. If they don't, play stops.

In "accidental offsides" play continues if the offending side don't gain advantage.

There's a significant difference here.

Indeed , the moment it rebounded off Haskell head and went back 15m , AG should call play on