[Law] Accidental offsides

[DocY]

Faletau's disallowed try at the weekend got me thinking...

I know there are some members of this parish who are a bit lenient when it comes to players playing the ball in front of a knocker on and was wondering their views about the things like Faletau's non-try (i.e. player is chasing a kick, 'scores' and is called back for being in front of the kicker).

Personally, I'd be more sympathetic to a player in this situation (disallowed try -> opposition penalty seems a bit of a leap) than one catching the ball after a knock on, but would be interested to hear others' thoughts.

For the record, I'm in no way suggesting that Faletau shouldn't have been penalised - I'm sure he knew full well that he was offside - but there are situations (albeit not likely at international level) when the player genuinely doesn't know he's offside.

 

[irishref]

We have a myriad of laws in our game but the thing that I try to keep in mind is "has this infringement been of benefit to the infringing team?"

Offside and interfering with play? Whistle every time.

 

[DocY]

Agreed, irishref.

I was asking because there's been some disagreement is the past about whether a player playing the ball offside (not just touching the ball, usually after a KO) could be given as accidental offside.

I guess I was really asking if anyone thought there were any circumstances when an offside player chasing a kick might be only accidentally offside.

 

[Pegleg]

"Accidentally" offside? Hmm: With the ref and / or the AR calling him to stop.

Player either know or SHOULD know the laws. If the ref uses C & O as a mantra it will be extremely rare for a kick chaser to not know. Even without the calls.

 

[DocY]

Player either know or SHOULD know the laws. If the ref uses C & O as a mantra it will be extremely rare for a kick chaser to not know. Even without the calls.

Yep, if ignorance absolved you from infringements I'm sure there'd be a lot of wilful ignorance!

But as I said above, I'm more sympathetic to a player chasing a kick (particularly if they catch it and 'score') when offside than collecting a knock on when offside and wondering if anyone (particularly those who'd give the offside from a KO as accidental) sees it the same way.

I should mention that this sympathy only extends to a comment that they were unlucky as I was penalising them.

 

[Pegleg]

But, in general, they know that they are offside. So why "more" sympathy? Especially as in a KO situation (Scotland Vs Australia RWC 2015) it is sometimes very difficult to be sure exactly what happened.

 

[DocY]

But, in general, they know that they are offside. So why "more" sympathy? Especially as in a KO situation (Scotland Vs Australia RWC 2015) it is sometimes very difficult to be sure exactly what happened.

Sure, I don't often have much sympathy (and even less in a KO situation), but I had a bit on the weekend (maybe those daffodil-tinted glasses helped) and I've had a handful of occasions when a player has been in front of the kicker for a cross field kick or a chip over the defence, when they've done very well to collect the ball and touch down, but I've called them back.
In these situations it's a genuine mistake when they're trying to play positively and they're just unlucky.

TBH, I was hoping to hear from someone who would treat a KO situation as accidental.

 

[ChrisR]

I would only consider offsides to be 'accidental' when the player reacted instinctively which can happen in the confusion of a KO. I just can't think of a situation where that would happen with a kick & chase.

 

[DocY]

I would only consider offsides to be 'accidental' when the player reacted instinctively which can happen in the confusion of a KO. I just can't think of a situation where that would happen with a kick & chase.

Thanks. No, I agree that a kick-chase isn't going to be instinctive in quite the same way, but it's not clear to me that an incorrect reaction should be treated differently to genuine ignorance about your position.

Unless of course, the difficulty to prevent the offence is the overriding factor. For me, the intent and the effect on play are more important factors.

 

[Pegleg]

Sure, I don't often have much sympathy (and even less in a KO situation), but I had a bit on the weekend (maybe those daffodil-tinted glasses helped) and I've had a handful of occasions when a player has been in front of the kicker for a cross field kick or a chip over the defence, when they've done very well to collect the ball and touch down, but I've called them back.
In these situations it's a genuine mistake when they're trying to play positively and they're just unlucky.

TBH, I was hoping to hear from someone who would treat a KO situation as accidental.

I have treated offside after a KO as accidental. My assessors have had no issue. I just can't see many instances following a kick ahead where, unless due to ignorance of Law AND THAT IS TOUGH), a player would not realise that he was offside chasing. SO he's unlikely to get any sympathy from me.

 

[Camquin]

I had problems parsing some of these entries as I was reading KO as kick off not knock on.

That aside, if someone I know if offside is chasing a kick, I would try to manage it with a quick call of "white 15 hold", and only go to a penalty if they did not comply. There is usually enough time.

With the knock on, if the ball is knocked into a player and they do not actively play it, then I would be happy to stick with the scrum - again I might try to manage it by telling them to leave the ball - but there is usually much less time than in a kick chase, so I may not have time. The tricky case is a knock on into a players 'bread basket' so they instinctively catch it.

It is what the player does next that turns it into a penalty. Of course every player is taught to play to the whistle. So their instinct is to play on in case the ref missed the knock on. But If they actively play the ball then I would be thinking penalty.

 

[DocY]

Sorry, I should have been clearer - I was meaning a KO then an offside player instinctively catches the ball being treated as accidental. For me, if he deliberately plays the ball (even if it's reactionary) it's not accidental, though would be if it just hit him or, perhaps, if he caught it, realised what he was doing and immediately dropped it.

I'm getting the impression that I'm alone in being sympathetic to the offside kick-chaser. Maybe I should change my thinking from "that's a bit of a harsh sanction" to "that was a stupid offence to commit".

 

[Phil E]

I'm getting the impression that I'm alone in being sympathetic to the offside kick-chaser. Maybe I should change my thinking from "that's a bit of a harsh sanction" to "that was a stupid offence to commit".

I think you are.

I think there's a difference between a player who actively plays a part in the game knowing that he's not allowed to. i.e. a kick chaser should know that he can't take part in the game if he is in front of the kicker. It's not our problem if the player is ignorant of the law. PK.

... and a player who can't really help interfering, so a player in front of the knock on, when the ball just falls into his arms and he can't avoid it. Scrum.

Remember lots of players are offside all the time and the law recognises that this will be the case. They only get pinged if they interfere with play. Was it accidental or deliberate? A kick chaser who chases after the ball and plays it is definitely doing it deliberately.

 

[Pegleg]

...It's not our problem if the player is ignorant of the law. PK.

... and a player who can't really help interfering, so a player in front of the knock on, when the ball just falls into his arms and he can't avoid it. Scrum.

There's the point.

 

[RobLev]

There's a very clear and restrictive definition in 11.6 of "accidental offside", which doesn't equate to the player being offside accidentally...:

[LAWS](a) When an offside player cannot avoid being touched by the ball or by a team-mate carrying it, the player is accidentally offside. If the player’s team gains no advantage from this, play continues. If the player’s team gains an advantage, a scrum is formed with the opposing team throwing in the ball.

(b) When a player hands the ball to a team-mate in front of the first player, the receiver is offside. Unless the receiver is considered to be intentionally offside (in which case a penalty kick is awarded), the receiver is accidentally offside and a scrum is formed with the opposing team throwing in the ball.[/LAWS]

So a kick chaser who catches the ball having started in front of the kicker can never be accidentally offside.