[Assistant Referees] AR Calling Penalty for Offside in Open Play

[davidlandy]

(From tonight's Pro12 match TRE v CAR)

Green kick ahead.

Blue player #1 attempts to catch ball but it bobbles. He makes a second abortive but fails to catch it.

Blue player #2, ahead of blue #1, now catches the ball.

Ref doesn't see it and plays on until the next stoppage, when he notices the AR's flag is out.

Discussion results in penalty to green for offside in open play.

Two questions:

1. Has the protocol changed so ARs can now call anything? It used to be just foul play.

2. Where is the boundary between a forward pass (scrum) and offside in open play (penalty)?

 

[Taff]

I don't think the protocol has changed, but if I was that Ref, I would rather see one of the ARs say something than stick to the protocol.

If you remember, there seemed to be a cock-up in one of last weeks games and almost everybody (including me) said where were the ARs?

 

[Ian_Cook]

ARs are calling in things all the time these days.

I recently watched Wasps v Saints Falcons and we could hear all the TO3 and TMO audio feeds. I was interested to hear just how much constant communication was going on from the AR's about offsides and tips about what players were doing. At one stage I heard the AR telling the referee that Wasps 3 had dropped his bind at the previous scrum. A few minutes later, we hear the referee (I think it was JP Doyle) telling Black 3 to keep his bind up.

That is a potential PK avoided; I think this is excellent team work between the officials, and helps the game to flow.

 

[Dickie E]

while it is common practice to call issues over the comms i'm surprised he hung his flag out. Was the stoppage a long time after the offside event?

 

[Pegleg]

I think the protocols are wrong and need changeing. However, the officials should stick to the rule just as the players should. That said I would expect an AR to tell the ref , over the comms, that he's seen a knock on or whatever IF the referee has asked him to do so before the game. In deed that is considered common practice. I presume that, in this instance, the ref asked him to do so.

Now to the signsl used. The flag out is the signal for FOUL play. It is strange that the AR considers either / both the knock on or the offside to be foul play.

 

[davidlandy]

OK to be fair, saying that the AR had his flag out was my assumption as he was out of shot and I couldn't think of any other way he could have communicated with the ref. I didn't know they had constant comms, and I had no sound as I was watching in a pub with loud music!!

It's possible the AR had his flag out, but he might also have had a word over the airwaves.

Play had only moved through one phase after the incident, the ball being passed down the line to the next breakdown where there was a knock on I think, so only about 10 seconds later, but across the other side of the field (hence the AR being out of shot).

 

[Pegleg]

A very dangerous assumption and it totally changes the nature of the scenario. Indicating foul play would have be totally wrong. Calling the incident over the comms would have been fine.

The law book answer your (accurate) question:

6.A.7 REFEREE CONSULTING WITH OTHERS
(a) The referee may consult with assistant referees about matters relating to their duties, the
Law relating to foul play or timekeeping and may request assistance related to other
aspects of the referee’s duties including the adjudication of offside.



The law changed in 2009 to allow the wider remit.

 

[OB..]

At a society meeting some time ago, a panel referee gave us his AR briefing. It took about 15 minutes. I have sat in on a few at level 6, and they were similar.

 

[davidlandy]

A very dangerous assumption and it totally changes the nature of the scenario. Indicating foul play would have be totally wrong. Calling the incident over the comms would have been fine.

The law book answer your (accurate) question:

6.A.7 REFEREE CONSULTING WITH OTHERS
(a) The referee may consult with assistant referees about matters relating to their duties, the
Law relating to foul play or timekeeping and may request assistance related to other
aspects of the referee’s duties including the adjudication of offside.

The law changed in 2009 to allow the wider remit.

Thanks to everyone for all the answers

Pegleg, that was exactly what I was looking for! Makes sense now. I went to have a look at that section, and found 6.B.3 which also seems relevant, and backs up what others have been saying:

[LAWS]6.B.3 The referee has control over both touch judges or assistant referees. The referee may tell them what their duties are...[/LAWS]

So the ref can basically make up their duties, and tell them in advance whether he also wants their help with any non-foul-play incidents he doesn't see, and/or what kind of offences to look for. Spectators would not necessarily know what the arrangements are - so it might seem a bit random from their point of view.

Just out of interest, couldn't the ref instruct the ARs to put out their flags for non-foul-play incidents also, so he has some sort of visual indication as well as the comms? I don't see anywhere that it's prohibited to do so...

 

[Pegleg]

To your last point, for me it is a no. Why?

1: The lawbook says that the signal is for Foul Play. So the message sent would be confusing.

2: Secondly for knock ons etc the ref may dismiss the AR's contribution quickly " I've seen it not a problem / not material or whatever for me I'm playing on thanks!". Foul play generally is going to take a conversation. It's a more complex and critical situation. We couldet losts of payable rugby stopped due to the AR.

Even with FP I like the idea of using the coms first if possible.

"I've got foul play at the ruck"

" Was it the push and shove Red 5 Blue 4? If so something of nothing I'll have a word at the next stoppage."

Then either:

" No it was a boot by Red 3"

"OK we'll stop play"

or

"Yep that's it"

" Ok we play on thanks."

A flag for every Knock on or offside etc? No thanks. Why do you think the officials are miked up?

 

[Pegleg]

The other bit about visual indication. Where is the ref looking as the ball moves away? Not at the AR that's for sure. The comms are a definate form of communication the Flag may, initially, be missed.

 

[The Fat]

Anyone who has carried out the role of AR with no comms in use will tell you how difficult it can be to get the ref's attention after you have put your flag out for foul play. In cases where the ref has not seen the incident, play has continued till the next stoppage (could have been multiple phases), and may have moved well away from you with the ref having his back to you. In such situations, it is good practice for the ARs to agree before the match to be aware of a flag out by your opposite in case you need to alert the referee on his/her behalf.

It is also a dangerous practice for ARs to use big signals/hand actions for thigs such as knock-ons, forward passes and offsides etc either rather than using comms or when there are no comms. The practice will no doubt hang the ref out to dry at some stage of the game. For example, red BC gives a flat short pass to a support player but a blue defender gets a hand to the ball which bounces towards blue's DBL before the red support player scoops the ball up and sets sail to the line to score. Meanwhile, the over enthusiastic AR is running down the sideline with his arm above his head in a knock-on signal motion for every man and his dog to see. Ref has awarded the try then spots the AR and has to have the conversation, "The ball was knocked down by blue", and the try stands as all of the blue team, their coach and supporters are backing the AR's incorrect call.

 

[OB..]

Anyone who has carried out the role of AR with no comms in use will tell you how difficult it can be to get the ref's attention after you have put your flag out for foul play.

Reminds me of an incident in the Varsity match in the days when the TJs were the previous year's captains. An Oxford ball carrier trod on the line near halfway, but play continued until Oxford "scored" in the far corner. At that point the Oxford TJ was spotted, still standing in place with his flag up. No try. Fair play to the TJ.

 

[Ian_Cook]

[LAWS]6.B.3 The referee has control over both touch judges or assistant referees. The referee may tell them what their duties are...[/LAWS]

So the ref can basically make up their duties, and tell them in advance whether he also wants their help with any non-foul-play incidents he doesn't see, and/or what kind of offences to look for. Spectators would not necessarily know what the arrangements are - so it might seem a bit random from their point of view.

That applies at lower levels of course, but at the top level, ARs are referees at that level in their own right, and they follow the guidelines laid down by whoever governs the competition they are refereeing in, or WR, whichever is applicable. In that case the referee/AR/TMO briefing will about everyone understanding those guldelines more that the referee telling the ARs what he wants.

 

[OB..]

I remember comments like "Don't tell me about knock-ons unless (a) it is clear, and (b) you are fairly sure I did not see it." or "Let me know if you notice a trend towards creeping offside." There may be exceptional circumstances: "Mate, there's a cockerel on the pitch, but he's onside at the moment."

 

[davidlandy]

That applies at lower levels of course, but at the top level, ARs are referees at that level in their own right, and they follow the guidelines laid down by whoever governs the competition they are refereeing in, or WR, whichever is applicable. In that case the referee/AR/TMO briefing will about everyone understanding those guldelines more that the referee telling the ARs what he wants.

That's interesting... so... kinda begs the question, what are the guidelines for ARs in the Pro12? Are they supposed to call all infringements and not just foul play? I hadn't seen anything other than FP being called at the top level before so was surprised, but perhaps I'm just behind the times.

 

[The Fat]

That's interesting... so... kinda begs the question, what are the guidelines for ARs in the Pro12? Are they supposed to call all infringements and not just foul play? I hadn't seen anything other than FP being called at the top level before so was surprised, but perhaps I'm just behind the times.

Next time you are watching a game you may see an AR put the hand that is not holding his flag to his sternum. He is pushing the button on his comms gear to allow him to alert the referee to something whether it be an offside player behind the ref, a knock-on that is unsighted by the ref or a prop playing funny buggers on the opposite side of the scrum to the ref.

A few years ago I remember being at a Super Rugby game in Brisbane and had my "Sports Ears" with me (radio receiver tuned in to the refs comms frequency). I let my then 16yo daughter have one of my earphones so she could hear the ref. She got a lot more than she bargained for with the ref's mic picking up some choice language from the players in a heated game between the Waratahs and Reds. Ian Smith's (AR) communication with Steve Walsh (ref) was very helpful in keeping some of those front rowers honest.
It's all standard communication amongst the To3 during a match.

 

[Pegleg]

That's interesting... so... kinda begs the question, what are the guidelines for ARs in the Pro12? Are they supposed to call all infringements and not just foul play? I hadn't seen anything other than FP being called at the top level before so was surprised, but perhaps I'm just behind the times.

I've given you the answer already in the law I quoted. The referee wil advise his ARs as to what HE wants from them. You will not "see it" because it is down over the comms for the reason you have been given above.

 

[Guyseep]

At the level I referee and occasionally AR our society has the handling of AR's all wrong.

There are a handful of upper tier refs who work together often and have built a relationship, but for the most part the AR's are a constant rotation of other referees who may have never or infrequently worked with the ref in the middle.

As present our society has the ref contact the ARs in the week leading up to the game(through email) with a breakdown of what they want the ARs to handle and the specifics of protocol for using comms etc etc. On my last two AR appointments I have received a document 6 pages long of all the details the refs wants covered. And the two refs had very different requirements listed in their documents. Some want the AR to call everything on comms, some don't want anything but foul play and ball in touch. Some want a very specific set of calls to be made over the comms to get their attention some don't.

I can't understand why the expectations of the AR aren't standardized so that any ref can step in as an AR and know exactly what is expected of them?

 

[The Fat]

I can't understand why the expectations of the AR aren't standardized so that any ref can step in as an AR and know exactly what is expected of them?

Our association (society) addresses To3 Communication during our Education Meetings during the season so that the protocol is pretty much standard for all of our refs and ARs. That way there is only a little bit of fine tuning between ref and AR on the day.


An example of some basic info for To3:

REFEREE & AR COMMUNICATION
A summary of examples of effective comms between Team of 3 from presentation given by Jxxxx Pxxxxx at July Education Night 20th July 2015.

AR to REFEREE
AIM:
• To report on infringements that the referee is unsighted on
• Only those infringements that have a material effect on play
• Secondary items
• Subs etc.

Material Effect example:
Scenario 1: Blue #13 knocks the ball forward and red immediately gain possession and proceed to make 10m territory. The referee is unsighted. You are the AR. What do you do?
Answer 1: Absolutely nothing. Unnecessary to use comms as red has gained an advantage.

Scenario 2: Green #13 is offside at the ruck. He is in the outside backs area and the referee hasn’t scanned for offside. The ball is distributed wide by blue. You are the AR. What do you do?
Answer 2: Use comms. Offside player shutting down options for blue and potentially making a tackle. The referee should listen to your call and apply advantage.


EXAMPLES OF EFFECTIVE COMMS
Effective comms:
AR Communicating to referee on infringement…
“Steve, Gold #10, Offside”

Not effective comms:
AR communicating to referee on infringement…
“Mate, they’re way offside”

Hypothetical 1:
Near side AR (Karl) observes Blue #13 rush up from the ruck in an offside position and the referee (Mick) is unsighted. Blue #13 will also most likely have an effect on play in this phase.
AR:
1. Push and hold PTT (Push to Talk) Button for a second.
2. Slowly, Loudly & Clearly say: “Mick, Blue #13 offside.”
3. Release button after a second.
The referee then plays advantage to the non-offending side.



Hypothetical 2:
Far side AR (Bob) observes Green #6 punch red #7 four times in the face with a closed fist. Red #7 then kicks Green #6 in the back and the referee (Graham) is unsighted.
AR:
1. Push and hold PTT (Push to Talk) Button for a second.
2. Slowly, Loudly & Clearly say: “Graham, I have a foul play report for you”.
3. Release button after a second.
*The referee then calls timeout at the next stoppage and consults the AR regarding what he has seen. The AR relays all necessary information and gives a recommendation for the sanction if asked for by referee.*

Hypothetical 3:
Near side AR (Shaun) has 2 red players (#21 & #16 replacing #10 & #1) next to him coming on as subs at the next stoppage. The ball goes dead on the far touchline and the referee (Al) is setting the lineout on the far side.
AR:
1. Push and hold PTT (Push to Talk) Button for a second.
2. Slowly, Loudly & Clearly say: “Al, 2 red subs, #10 and #1 red coming off”.
3. Release button after a second.
*The referee then calls timeout and tells #10 and #1 red they are being substituted and they begin to leave the field while the subs come on.


REFEREE to AR
CLEAR, CONCISE, ACCURATE

Example 1:
Referee: “I have seen Blue #16 strike Green #2 twice to the head with a closed fist. Can you add anything to this?”
AR: “No” or “I have seen Green #2 also throw a single punch to the stomach with a closed fist” etc.
Remember: No animated hand gestures during a foul play report

Example 2:
Referee: “I am unsighted. What to do you have?”
AR: “I have seen Green ground the ball over the line. Try.”