Ball Carrier is legally tackled goes to ground, presents ball; leaves hand-on ball

[Andrew Harper]

Hello to you all,

The start of the season is here in the UK.

I would really appreciate your views on this one...

The ball carrier is legally tackled and goes to ground; (NOW) the tackled player must immediately pass or release the ball as set-out in Law 15.

Here is the issue...the tackled player makes the choice to 'present' the ball by placing it on the ground , all fine so far, and then leaves his hand on top of the ball...he leaves his hand there, just resting on-top of the ball...and the arriving opposition player (first in) is denied the immediacy of the ball because the tackled player still has his hand on top of the ball (just to present it).Thus the opposing player is denied that valuable second of advantage.

My view is that this is a PK..what do you all think? THANKS.

 

[ChrisR]

I don't have a problem with the hand on the ball (prevents it getting kicked back in) but the second that the ops arrive and challenge for the ball then it's a PK if it prevents fair contest.

 

[Phil E]

The ball carrier just having his hand on top of the ball to keep it in place isn't an issue.

If an arriving "other player" then tries to legally pick up the ball (no ruck having formed), the ball carriers hand shouldn't really be able to prevent this from happening. I am not going to give a PK if the arriving player lifts the ball and in doing so casts aside the tackled players hand. However, if the tackled player applies downwards pressure to prevent the arriving player from lifting the ball, then its advantage time.

The arriving player however, must be making an effort to lift the ball, and not just placing his hands on it and then shouting for a penalty!....which can happen.

 

[ddjamo]

agree with phil. until it's material - no issue.

I would go a step further though. real placement, as in an arm's length away from the contact area towards the tackled ball carrier's support, is very acceptable and a hand would have very little leverage. if he leaves his arm/hand draped over the ball near his body - that's hardly presenting.

 

[Browner]

..... And Tackled players employ a host of delay tactics, roll, re- placement, twist, shuffle , knee over the ball as its released ( not exhaustive) Etc... All designed to buy time for the supporting players to arrive.

There is a wide range of acceptability timings from referees, as a coach I try to establish the acceptability speed early on and then communicate this to the players if they haven't already picked up on it.

As a ref, If I'm asked in PMB, then I always say that genuine ball lifting attempts by jacklers get rewarded, provided its as per Phil E's checklist.

Hope this helps.

 

[beckett50]

Two "M's" to consider:
Materiality and Management.

As Phil said, a hand on top of the ball to steady it should not prevent an oppo player from picking up the ball. If it does, because he fails to remove it when the contest is taking place then PK.

 

[Browner]

Watch this ......
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iyefF6yf414

Watch from 1.30s & the next attempted ball steal

Are you in the......... jackler entitled - therefore PK, or TP delaying his release of the ball ...... opinion ?

 

[Ian_Cook]

Watch this ......
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iyefF6yf414

Watch from 1.30s & the next attempted ball steal

Are you in the......... jackler entitled - therefore PK, or TP delaying his release of the ball ...... opinion ?

Neither.

I'm in the "at full speed from ground level and without a replay, I can't tell whether or not the ruck was formed before the jackler got his hands on the ball" camp. So play on!

 

[damo]

Neither.

I'm in the "at full speed from ground level and without a replay, I can't tell whether or not the ruck was formed before the jackler got his hands on the ball" camp. So play on!

I'm happy that there is no ruck formed because the ball doesn't make it to the ground until after the Jackler is removed. I would never PK here for holding on because the jackler doesn't have time enough to get the ball before he's cleared out of the way. If he survives a second or two more and has a decent go at the ball then I'll PK the ball carrier for holding on, but not there.

 

[Browner]

I'm happy that there is no ruck formed because the ball doesn't make it to the ground until after the Jackler is removed. I would never PK here for holding on because the jackler doesn't have time enough to get the ball before he's cleared out of the way. If he survives a second or two more and has a decent go at the ball then I'll PK the ball carrier for holding on, but not there.

Yep you got it damo.......I chose this clip specifically because there wasn't a ruck at the point the 'legally compliant' jackler got his hands on the ball, it was fairly clear that the ball never got to ground, even at full speed.

As the clip moves on you see the jackler having a prolonged (2nd) grab at the ball - that is still off the ground -( whilst still resisting the illegal clearance efforts of the support player) , at that point he should have got the reward of his quality work IMO.

so the question is, did the player on the ground fail to release in order to buy time for his support , or did he allow a fair contest?

I'd say hecwas beaten by a very speedy jackal , which I think is the general query of the OP.

 

[Dickie E]

I'm happy that there is no ruck formed because the ball doesn't make it to the ground until after the Jackler is removed. I would never PK here for holding on because the jackler doesn't have time enough to get the ball before he's cleared out of the way. If he survives a second or two more and has a decent go at the ball then I'll PK the ball carrier for holding on, but not there.

I disagree. Penalty against Red 19 for not releasing.

 

[ddjamo]

I disagree. Penalty against Red 19 for not releasing.

in real time?

 

[tim White]

I disagree, PK against red 19;

The Jackler was legal and could not gain possession of the ball -now why was that? :knuppel2If you link clips that are in slow motion you get the appropriate answer. )

50:50 call at game speed.:Nerv:

 

[ddjamo]

good luck with your standard on the day if you pk that 50/50. in slo mo I can easily talk myself into a pk but real time - no way.

 

[Dickie E]

good luck with your standard on the day if you pk that 50/50. in slo mo I can easily talk myself into a pk but real time - no way.

The key for me is that Red 19 is briefly dragged along by the Black jackler. For that to happen:
1. the Black jackler has a good grasp of the ball, and
2. Red 19 is not releasing the ball

 

[Drift]

I disagree. Penalty against Red 19 for not releasing.

No chance, the guy didn't survive the clean out.

 

[Drift]

I disagree, PK against red 19;

The Jackler was legal and could not gain possession of the ball -now why was that? :knuppel2If you link clips that are in slow motion you get the appropriate answer. )

50:50 call at game speed.:Nerv:

No, the guy on his feet needs to survive the first clean out to win possession of the ball, especially when the support player arrives that quickly, and he doesn't so we have a play on moment. Let the play breathe for a second or two and see what develops, in this instance what has developed is ball out play on. What you seem to want to happen is the focus to be on you by blowing a PK.

 

[Dickie E]

What you seem to want to happen is the focus to be on you by blowing a PK.

That's unfair. You've got to call 'em the way you see 'em. As I said, Red 19 is dragged along the ground by the ball. Clear indication to me that he has not released. Quick clean out not withstanding.

 

[Ian_Cook]

No, the guy on his feet needs to survive the first clean out to win possession of the ball, especially when the support player arrives that quickly, and he doesn't so we have a play on moment. Let the play breathe for a second or two and see what develops, in this instance what has developed is ball out play on. What you seem to want to happen is the focus to be on you by blowing a PK.

I agree 100%.

If you PK this play early in the game, then that will be how you've set out your stall, and you now must continue to maintain that standard. You will be blowing a lot of breakdown PKs because you have drastically narrowed the constraints on the jacker (or tackled player depending on which you choose to PK) and you will make it very difficult or near-impossible for players to comply. It follows that you will inevitably have to go to your pocket early.

The jackler got hands on the ball
The clean out player knocked the jackler off his feet milliseconds later

Had the jackler been able to kep his hand on the ball and keep his feet, then fair enough, ping Red 19, but as it stands here, IMO, this is a play that screams play on.

 

[Drift]

That's unfair. You've got to call 'em the way you see 'em. As I said, Red 19 is dragged along the ground by the ball. Clear indication to me that he has not released. Quick clean out not withstanding.

The art to refereeing is knowing the ones not to blow, that's a PK not to blow.

Perhaps I worded it wrong however, like Ian points out, if you blow that PK once then you are going to be blowing it all day long.