Ball in touch/ knock on what's the decision

[Ciaran Trainor]

This scenario came up tonight and prompted some debate
Red v blue
Maul 5 m outside blue 22. Blue scrum half gets ball and box kicks.
Red winger sees it is close to line and positions himself with one foot clearly planted outside the line of touch.
Ball is in field of play as it reaches red winger who attempts to catch it but knocks on and ball rolls into touch.
Thoughts?

 

[TigerCraig]

This scenario came up tonight and prompted some debate
Red v blue
Maul 5 m outside blue 22. Blue scrum half gets ball and box kicks.
Red winger sees it is close to line and positions himself with one foot clearly planted outside the line of touch.
Ball is in field of play as it reaches red winger who attempts to catch it but knocks on and ball rolls into touch.
Thoughts?

I'd say knock on by red, going directly into touch, option to blue of scrum, line-out or QTI

From Definitions in Law 19: "The ball is in touch when a player is carrying it and the ball carrier (or the ball) touches the touchline or the ground beyond the touchline...... A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not crossed the plane of the touchline. "

From Law 12.1 (e) Knock-on or throw forward into touch. When the ball goes into touch from a knock-on or throw forward, the non-offending team will have the option of a lineout at the point the ball crossed the touch line or a scrum at the place of the knock-on or throw forward, or a quick throw in.

 

[JSAK]

I suspect the point is that Red was already in touch, so no scrum option since the knock-on happened in touch?

 

[Dickie E]

I suspect the point is that Red was already in touch, so no scrum option since the knock-on happened in touch?

that would suggest that if the ball didn't go into touch then play on. Which can't be right.

 

[TigerCraig]

I suspect the point is that Red was already in touch, so no scrum option since the knock-on happened in touch?

But the ball never went into touch until after the knock on. It never crossed the plane and was not being carried or held by the Red player.

 

[TigerCraig]

that would suggest that if the ball didn't go into touch then play on. Which can't be right.

It would be if Blue recovered it though, with KO advantage wouldnt it?

 

[Dickie E]

It would be if Blue recovered it though, with KO advantage wouldnt it?

playing on is different to playing advantage

 

[JSAK]

But the ball never went into touch until after the knock on. It never crossed the plane and was not being carried or held by the Red player.

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Thanks CraigTiger, I originally misread the OP and thought that the ball had landed in touch. The “ball rolls into touch” clearly implies that the ball landed in the FOP then rolled into touch. Per Law 19 Definitions (paragraph 6) if the Red winger had successfully caught the ball while straddling the touchline the ball would be considered to have been caught in touch. However, he didn't catch the ball, but he did touch it while it was in the FOP and he was standing in touch. So, the Red winger has taken the ball into touch. The rest of the scenario is irrelevant, there was no knock or knock-on because the ball was already dead. Blue line-out, or QTI, but no scrum. [/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]In the case that I am wrong, and if ctrainor means by “knock-on” that the ball was lost forward, then it your analysis would appear to be predicated on a knock-on being an acceptable form of a “knock” as described in the last definition in Law 19. If the definition is commonly interpreted as a knock-on not being an acceptable form of a knock, then including the scrum option in your analysis is incorrect. [/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Whatever the “correct “ answer, I suspect ctrainor and his mates dreamt-up this scenario after a few post-game pints and now he is having some fun with us.[/FONT]

 

[The Fat]

Knock on by would be catcher with ball then rolling into touch. Therefore, scrum or line out options to kicker's team

 

[The Fat]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Thanks CraigTiger, I originally misread the OP and thought that the ball had landed in touch. The “ball rolls into touch” clearly implies that the ball landed in the FOP then rolled into touch. Per Law 19 Definitions (paragraph 6) if the Red winger had successfully caught the ball while straddling the touchline the ball would be considered to have been caught in touch. However, he didn't catch the ball, but he did touch it while it was in the FOP and he was standing in touch. So, the Red winger has taken the ball into touch. The rest of the scenario is irrelevant, there was no knock or knock-on because the ball was already dead. Blue line-out, or QTI, but no scrum. [/FONT]

By your reasoning (my highlight in bold red), a player would not be able to stand in touch and knock a ball, which has not crossed the plane-of-touch, back towards his own players. Your interpretation says that in such a scenario, the ball would be in touch and therefore dead as soon as the player touches the ball. We all know that is not the case.

 

[Camquin]

For suitably defined values of all.

If he caught it and is was then tackled and knocked on I might rule he had enough control for the ball to be in touch before the ball was dislodged, but it would come down to timing.

Camquin

 

[ChrisR]

Three relevant items from the Law 19 definitions:

The ball is in touch when it is not being carried by a player and it touches the touchline or anything or anyone on or beyond the touchline.

The ball is in touch if a player catches the ball and that player has a foot on the touchline or the ground beyond the touchline. If a player has one foot in the field of play and one foot in touch and holds the ball, the ball is in touch.

A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not crossed the plane of the touchline. The plane of the touchline is the vertical space rising immediately above the touchline.

For me, the first one takes precedence. The player attempting to catch the ball is in touch. The ball comes in contact with him, therefore the ball is in touch. Ball in touch precedes the knock on, therefore thrown in to receiving team not scrum to kicking team.

The confounding part is item number three. Does this come into play?

 

[FlipFlop]

For me this is simple. The ball has not crossed the plane, so unless the player catches it, the ball is not in touch. As quoted above:
[LAWS]A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not crossed the plane of the touchline. The plane of the touchline is the vertical space rising immediately above the touchline.[/LAWS]

Therefore in this case the ball does not go into touch. The ball has been knocked by a player in touch. This means it has not gone directly into touch. Directly into touch is a red-herring, it does not apply as the ball was not caught.

Therefore where the player who tried (but failed) to catch it is irrelevant. We play the same as if they were in the field of play.

 

[JSAK]

Knock on by would be catcher with ball then rolling into touch. Therefore, scrum or line out options to kicker's team

By your reasoning (my highlight in bold red), a player would not be able to stand in touch and knock a ball, which has not crossed the plane-of-touch, back towards his own players. Your interpretation says that in such a scenario, the ball would be in touch and therefore dead as soon as the player touches the ball. We all know that is not the case.

(1st Q) Agreed, if the player was in the FOP when he attempted to catch the ball. But he was not, he was in touch. I think we would agree that a player with both feet in touch who fumbles a catch after the ball has crossed the POT and the ball goes forward (but still in touch) has not knocked-on. I am saying there is no such thing as a knock-on once the ball is in touch and the winger touching the ball has brought it into touch.

(2dQ) Not exactly. As Marauder points out in P#12, there are three Law 19 Definitions that are pertinent here:

The ball is in touch when it is not being carried by a player and it touches the touchline or anything or anyone on or beyond the touchline.

The ball is in touch if a player catches the ball and that player has a foot on the touchline or the ground beyond the touchline. If a player has one foot in the field of play and one foot in touch and holds the ball, the ball is in touch.

A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not crossed the plane of the touchline. The plane of the touchline is the vertical space rising immediately above the touchline.

The third definition clearly allows for the ball being knocked back into the FOP. But the winger did not knock it back into play, he knocked-on towards his opponents goal line. The Definitions state that a player may catch, kick, or knock the ball while in touch. They do not say he can knock–on while in touch.

However, while entertaining, this part of the discussion is academic. The second definition above places the Red winger squarely in touch. The first definition above puts the ball in touch (I am assuming that the ball touching anyone in touch is the same as anyone in touch touching the ball). So, in this instance, the analysis ends with the Red winger touching the ball. No knock-on and no ball rolling into touch. Blue lineout or QTI, but no scrum.

Q.E.D. ?

 

[The Fat]

(1st Q) Agreed, if the player was in the FOP when he attempted to catch the ball. But he was not, he was in touch. I think we would agree that a player with both feet in touch who fumbles a catch after the ball has crossed the POT and the ball goes forward (but still in touch) has not knocked-on. I am saying there is no such thing as a knock-on once the ball is in touch and the winger touching the ball has brought it into touch.

(2dQ) Not exactly. As Marauder points out in P#12, there are three Law 19 Definitions that are pertinent here:

The ball is in touch when it is not being carried by a player and it touches the touchline or anything or anyone on or beyond the touchline.

The ball is in touch if a player catches the ball and that player has a foot on the touchline or the ground beyond the touchline. If a player has one foot in the field of play and one foot in touch and holds the ball, the ball is in touch.

A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not crossed the plane of the touchline. The plane of the touchline is the vertical space rising immediately above the touchline.

The third definition clearly allows for the ball being knocked back into the FOP. But the winger did not knock it back into play, he knocked-on towards his opponents goal line. The Definitions state that a player may catch, kick, or knock the ball while in touch. They do not say he can knock–on while in touch.

However, while entertaining, this part of the discussion is academic. The second definition above places the Red winger squarely in touch. The first definition above puts the ball in touch (I am assuming that the ball touching anyone in touch is the same as anyone in touch touching the ball). So, in this instance, the analysis ends with the Red winger touching the ball. No knock-on and no ball rolling into touch. Blue lineout or QTI, but no scrum.

Q.E.D. ?

Your thoughts on 22.4g would be interesting.

 

[RobLev]

...The third definition clearly allows for the ball being knocked back into the FOP. But the winger did not knock it back into play, he knocked-on towards his opponents goal line. The Definitions state that a player may catch, kick, or knock the ball while in touch. They do not say he can knock–on while in touch.

...

But the ball in the OP never went into touch; it never crossed the plane of touch, and the player never caught it.

[LAWS]The ball is in touch when it is not being carried by a player and it touches the touchline or anything or anyone on or beyond the touchline.[/LAWS]

means that the impact has to be on or beyond the plane of touch - or:

[LAWS]The ball is in touch if a player catches the ball and that player has a foot on the touchline or the ground beyond the touchline.[/LAWS]

would be superfluous. Why the reference to catching it, if a mere touch puts the ball in touch?

 

[JSAK]

Your thoughts on 22.4g would be interesting.

So, you want to there, huh? Actually that's a great question, but I'm doing that pesky work thing right now so I'll get back to you later.

 

[ChrisR]

Your thoughts on 22.4g would be interesting.

Similar, but not quite. 22.4 is two events happening at the same time. ie. in touch in goal & grounding the ball. Advantage to grounding the ball. In touch and knock on are not silmultaneous, in touch happens first.

 

[Taff]

As the ball hadn't crossed the "plane of touch" I would say it was a knock-on.

 

[ChrisR]

Player one foot is in touch and the other in the FOP. Is he in touch? Yes, if he catches the ball. Instead, ball hits his leg in the FOP. Is the ball in touch?