[Ruck] Ball not won but taken out

[RugbyRob]

Tackle occurs with 9 blue tackling 9 red and driving back behind the game line. A scrappy ruck forms blue 1 3 & 7 appear to be contesting well but fall and stop as reds forwards pile in to secure ball. The ball is not immediately available to either team but red 11 is trying to get it blue 2 comes in from behind the ruck doesn't bind and is still behind the back foot somehow is able to get the ball out cleanly, referee blows for PK hands in ruck. As the ruck isn't over, is blue 2 allowed to have hands on and take it out despite his team not having obviously won the ball?

[laws]16.4.b[FONT=fs_blakeregular]Players must not handle the ball in a ruck except after a tackle if they are on their feet and have their hands on the ball before the ruck is formed.[/FONT][/laws]

However does the 'in the ruck part' refer to the ball or the player. If it is the player then blue 2 was not bound in anyway nor offside as he was behind the behind the back foot.

Even though the law does describe when a ruck ends [laws]16.6 [FONT=fs_blakeregular]A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck, or when the ball is on or over the goal line. [/FONT][/laws][FONT=fs_blakeregular]
[/FONT]
It doesn't state that how a ball may leave the ruck i.e. passed or picked, nor if the ball must be explicitly 'won' by a team for that team to use the ball.

additionally does't [laws] 15.6.b [FONT=fs_blakeregular]After a tackle any players on their feet may attempt to gain possession by taking the ball from the ball carrier’s possession.[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular] [/laws]
[/FONT]apply and allow blue 2 to attempt to secure the ball providing he doesn't join the ruck.

This happened in a game I was playing in not refereeing, so I may not have had the best judgement but I was beside the ruck but playing for red however I'm taking level 2 in the summer though and I've completed the laws exam.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Bloody good question.

If the ball was "out" (as in behind the hindmost foot of the hindmost Red player) then the ruck is over. I see no reason why a Blue player cannot reach over, or go through, or come around to pick up the ball, provided he was onside when the ruck ended.

 

[The Fat]

Correct decision by ref.
Ball is on the red side of the ruck but is still in the ruck with red 11 acting as scrum half.
Blue 2 reaches in and picks up the ball.
Pretty clear hands in ruck by blue

 

[didds]

If by "secure the ball" in the OP means red has the ball available for red 9 to retrieve then I'm with the Fat.

If that wording means more "in an attempt to get the ball where their 9 can reach it", but in fact the ball was still stuck somewhere deep inside then either both 9s are free to dig, or neither.

I will say I am struggling to picture how red having secured the ball to the extent it is where red 9 can retrieve it, do not have it far enough away from an onside blue 9, even with only three blue forwards involved. It certainly does sound like hands in by blue 9 though.

didds

 

[Rich_NL]

Tackle occurs with 9 blue tackling 9 red and driving back behind the game line. A scrappy ruck forms blue 1 3 & 7 appear to be contesting well but fall and stop as reds forwards pile in to secure ball. The ball is not immediately available to either team but red 11 is trying to get it blue 2 comes in from behind the ruck doesn't bind and is still behind the back foot somehow is able to get the ball out cleanly, referee blows for PK hands in ruck. As the ruck isn't over, is blue 2 allowed to have hands on and take it out despite his team not having obviously won the ball?

[laws]16.4.b[FONT=fs_blakeregular]Players must not handle the ball in a ruck except after a tackle if they are on their feet and have their hands on the ball before the ruck is formed.[/FONT][/laws]

However does the 'in the ruck part' refer to the ball or the player. If it is the player then blue 2 was not bound in anyway nor offside as he was behind the behind the back foot.

I understand the question; you can rephrase the law as "in a ruck, players must not handle the ball". While the ruck is ongoing, no players may handle the ball unless they were already doing so before the ruck formed (answering your final question - the ruck is a different phase of play to a tackle).

A little digging is of course allowed for continuity, and on balance the team that was in possession is favoured - a turnover requires a clearly-won ruck before the other team can lay claim to the ball. Just being onside is not enough

 

[RugbyRob]

In the game the ruck was a good 3 meters deep with 9 players we (red) were on our five metre line; so I can only guess that the ball was still close to the ball carrier and wasn't presented well and was closer to the blue offside than the red offside and so wasn't well available to either team . I suppose the main question here is that does a ball have to be clearly won for a team to take it out as it isn't stated in the law but is just an expected practice.

 

[OB..]

I suppose the main question here is that does a ball have to be clearly won for a team to take it out as it isn't stated in the law but is just an expected practice.

[LAWS]16.7 (c) [FONT=fs_blakeregular]When the ball has been clearly won by a team at a ruck and the ball is available to be played the referee will call "Use it!" after which the ball must be played within five seconds. If the ball is not played within five seconds the referee will award a scrum and the team not in possession of the ball at the ruck is awarded the throw-in.[/FONT][/LAWS]At all levels that underlined bit has become a convention to allow the scrum half to pick the ball out of the ruck, or even dig for it.

It must be very rare for the ball to be available to both scrum halves - I've never come across it.

From your original description it sounds as if the ball may have been smuggled back illegally, which would clearly be a PK against Blue. Did the referee indicate who he had penalised?

 

[RugbyRob]

From your original description it sounds as if the ball may have been smuggled back illegally, which would clearly be a PK against Blue. Did the referee indicate who he had penalised?

It was definitely blue two, repeat team offence and he had a chat but I though my self that the ball was never going to come out as when blue 2 picked it was a good 12 seconds since the tackle, (red eleven had been struggling to get at the ball since the ruck became stationary and I'm not sure he had hands on or If the ref ref could see what was happening in the ruck) and that there would be a scrum. Obviously I wouldn't have disagreed with him because we got the PK but it made me think what I would do in that situation.

 

[OB..]

It was definitely blue two, repeat team offence and he had a chat but I though my self that the ball was never going to come out as when blue 2 picked it was a good 12 seconds since the tackle and that there would be a scrum.

My guess would be that he could not identify the perpetrator of the initial illegal play but could identify Blue 2 as technically playing the ball in the ruck (in contravention of the convention) because that was equitable.

 

[The Fat]

It was definitely blue two, repeat team offence and he had a chat but I though my self that the ball was never going to come out as when blue 2 picked it was a good 12 seconds since the tackle, (red eleven had been struggling to get at the ball since the ruck became stationary and I'm not sure he had hands on or If the ref ref could see what was happening in the ruck) and that there would be a scrum. Obviously I wouldn't have disagreed with him because we got the PK but it made me think what I would do in that situation.

Well this description sounds like it's "an unplayable" situation.
If so, scrum to team going forward before it became unplayable.

The OP description sounded like the ruck was clearly won by red and that 2 Blue had reached over and plucked the ball out of the ruck, thus the ref's PK decision.

 

[ChrisR]

From the OP:

"......blue 2 comes in from behind the ruck doesn't bind and is still behind the back foot somehow is able to get the ball out cleanly....."

By convention, in order to keep the ball in play, we allow players to do this. If Blue 2 can reach the ball and pick it cleanly the it's "Play on" from me but it seems like that was a reach too far for the referee of the day.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

Why has the ball not been considered as "left the ruck" when the red team are no longer on their feet?.

That is in other words, the definition of ruck is no longer met, then ball has therefore left simultaneously.

 

[OB..]

Why has the ball not been considered as "left the ruck" when the red team are no longer on their feet?.

That is in other words, the definition of ruck is no longer met, then ball has therefore left simultaneously.

[LAWS]Clarification 3 of 2007
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]Request[/FONT]
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]1. A ruck is formed and the ball is playable for Team A. All players in Team B now leave the ruck and step back. Is there still a ruck or has the ruck ended?
[/FONT]
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]Ruling in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee[/FONT]
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck or when the ball enters in goal i.e. on or over the goal line.

A ruck ends unsuccessfully when the ball becomes unplayable.
[/FONT]
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]As there has been a ruck formed initially, AND the criteria for a successful or unsuccessful ruck have not been exhibited, then the ruck has not ended.[/FONT][/LAWS]
The criteria for forming a ruck do not have to be maintained throughout. If all the players are off their feet, it is still a ruck.