Concussion tests

[menace]

Works for me. :clap:

Ummmm...don't think it meant you needed to put it as your email/blog signature block (give yourself an uppercut). But whatever floats your boat. :biggrin::wink::wink:

 

[Account Deleted]

So what are IRFU and WRU doing about it ?

At least RFU are communicating and informing their whole game in England with a high profile campaign.

Officially they are making the same noises and backing the IRB position. Why do you need to make this about union vs union? The problem is that at the top level (AGAIN) lip service is paid to the issues. At Grassroots we don't get an issue with this subject and I'm sure it is the same in Ireland, England and everywhere else. Sadly The elite game is a different ball game. The lions tour showed that.

I'd have thought that you Simon would have been above the petty Union Vs Union nonsense.

 

[menace]

The concussion stuff has been well and truly advertised down here for the past 2 seasons...yet I was 4th official at a recent semi-pro international game that was refereed by a S15 ref. A player went down from a headknock (in front of the bench and play moved away from him so game continued and medic saw to him) and he looked all but knocked out. While the medic was with player, he was semi convulsing and they couldn't really get a cohesive response for a minute or so. As they got him to sit up, the game stopped and ref came over. Player had a bit of blood from nose, so they did a blood injury temp replacement. Dr then waves his magic fingers in front of players eyes and hey presto, 5 minutes later the glassy eyed player was asked to be interchanged back into the game. No5 and I were dumbfounded, but not surprised. We had no gambit to prevent him going on. For the next 5 minutes the player was a bit wobbly and stayed in back play. Best we could do was give the ref a heads up message to keep an eye on him. I guess the moral is, that regardless of the concussion messages, at the elite level, it's not going to make a difference. They will do as they've always done, and that is to ignore the issue. The important issue for them is the here and now of winning the game, not preserving the players brain for his future!

 

[Browner]

The concussion stuff has been well and truly advertised down here for the past 2 seasons...yet I was 4th official at a recent semi-pro international game that was refereed by a S15 ref. A player went down from a headknock (in front of the bench and play moved away from him so game continued and medic saw to him) and he looked all but knocked out. While the medic was with player, he was semi convulsing and they couldn't really get a cohesive response for a minute or so. As they got him to sit up, the game stopped and ref came over. Player had a bit of blood from nose, so they did a blood injury temp replacement. Dr then waves his magic fingers in front of players eyes and hey presto, 5 minutes later the glassy eyed player was asked to be interchanged back into the game. No5 and I were dumbfounded, but not surprised. We had no gambit to prevent him going on. For the next 5 minutes the player was a bit wobbly and stayed in back play. Best we could do was give the ref a heads up message to keep an eye on him. I guess the moral is, that regardless of the concussion messages, at the elite level, it's not going to make a difference. They will do as they've always done, and that is to ignore the issue. The important issue for them is the here and now of winning the game, not preserving the players brain for his future!

Sounds like you need to get the gambit, somehow ! .....If it's a To3 , then that applies to safety ,...yes?

 

[Shelflife]

So what are IRFU and WRU doing about it ?

At least RFU are communicating and informing their whole game in England with a high profile campaign.

Simon I wasn't having a go at the RFU, its all the powers that be that wont make the simple call.

FWIW the IRFU have also done informational promos to highlight concussion and had workshops on it for coaches and players.

It just undoes all the good work when we have instances like we had last weekend.

 

[Browner]

Post match 3wks ago, I'm chatting to the capt of home team, I'd insisted he concussed off during the match.

His wife & two young kids turn up and wander over, and on seeing his bruised cheek is told , "I was knocked out slightly, but i'm fine luv.... " her response was priceless and unforgettable ............

" I told you to get the life insurance sorted, you're not playing again until you do, we've got kids now"


Love is ....... Paying your premiums ...!


Simon, thanks for the info...I'm going to see how long this info takes to get cascaded to this club juniors coach... Watch this space

 

[menace]

Sounds like you need to get the gambit, somehow ! .....If it's a To3 , then that applies to safety ,...yes?

Yes and no...but no4/5 are not in the To3....and AIUI has no gambit or weight to tell a player or the team medic a player is not fit to be back on the field (except for blood replacement returning). We can only tell the To3 what we think...which we did. The laws say the 'referee' has that discretion, not the AR/TJ and certainly not the 4/5s. But I'm happy to be corrected on that.

 

[menace]

For those interested - not that most of us need convincing.

Recent story on TV about concussion by ex-wallaby Peter Fitzsimmon

http://au.news.yahoo.com/sunday-night/video/watch/21894184/the-reality-of-concussion-in-sport/

 

[Browner]

Yes and no...but no4/5 are not in the To3....and AIUI has no gambit or weight to tell a player or the team medic a player is not fit to be back on the field (except for blood replacement returning). We can only tell the To3 what we think...which we did. The laws say the 'referee' has that discretion, not the AR/TJ and certainly not the 4/5s. But I'm happy to be corrected on that.

If 4\5 communicate concerns to To3, presumably To3 have already seen the player in question be KO'd , then you have imagine that they
A) disagree with your view
B) lack the resolve to make the headline call
C) have other curtailing pressures
D) abdicate decisions to medics (employees of clubs (?))

Or a combination of either

I guess the q? Is "what should happen?"

 

[L'irlandais]

So what are IRFU ... doing about it ?...

The IRFU have launched a new guide to educate players, coaches, officials and parents on the dangers of concussion and how to recognise it.STOP INFORM REST RETURN -

"This guide, and our traffic light poster campaign, should be displayed in every rugby school and club in Ireland, to ensure more people recognise concussion and take action to reduce the risk of serious injury.”

I believe they have raised awareness in the country. :shrug:

 

[menace]

I think in the end that there has been so much hype and information campaigns from (all?) the rugby Unions that at least no one; player, parent, spectator and team officials, can't say they don't know about it. Just about everyone has been told about the risks, how they choose to deal with that risk is up to them. Just like smoking, people choose to ignore the risks.

 

[Taff]

I think in the end that there has been so much hype and information campaigns from (all?) the rugby Unions that at least no one; player, parent, spectator and team officials, can't say they don't know about it.

Good point Menace.

 

[Browner]

http://www.espn.co.uk/ireland/rugby/story/219687.html

Interestingly the newspaper quotes "mandatory three-week lay-off"

Dear Parents,
Always insist on a scan, not conclusive, but better than being turned away.

 

[buff]

The mandatory lay-off came up yesterday in the pre-season meeting for my high school league. One of the coaches said that the IRB Rugby Ready program required at mandatory 20 day lay-off. I did my rugby ready several seasons ago so that caught me by surprise.

 

[Stephen Elliott]

Thanks for all the links to support decision making.
I'm of the opinion that anyone being KOd from now on must show NO signs of it affecting them or I'll refuse for them to continue; I now know how and why I should do that.
I'm going to get some people inflamed with this, but I will say that not everyone KOd has suffered a concussion, and I understand the why risk it, but it is their choice. I disagree that you can trick the test. If you're not right, you're not right and no-one wants to let you play as no-one wants that on their conscience, but and it is a big Butt, you can develop symptoms after 5 minutes later.
At lower levels there is more of an incentive to play on as there is less scrutiny of the players, ref and physio. However, some individuals take it just as seriously as a national game... without TMOs looking over your shoulder, let alone ARs, physios or coaches (or couches) as a referee, you should be supported 100% by your society to make the right decision.
As a referee, I think it's important that we set a standard that we feel comfortable with. If the unions set lower standards, that is fine, but for 80 minutes we are responsible (morally if not legally) for the player safety.

 

[buff]

If you mean KO'd in the literal sense, knocked unconscious, however briefly, the player should not be allowed back on at all, period.

 

[L'irlandais]

Myth gents!

"A player doesn't have to be knocked out to sustain a serious concussion," ... "In some cases, individuals who are knocked out may suffer less severe trauma. In either case, the severity of the concussion might not be known for days or weeks."

Source

 

[Na Madrai]

Had an interesting example of this only last Sunday. County Cup Semi-final, colts. Match has been played at one hundred miles an hour with no quarter given or requested, brilliant, end to end stuff.

Home team openside, player of the match, takes knee to his face from his own prop. Crimson flows and I stop the match. Coaches quickly arrive and it is clear to me that the player is out of it. Clock is still running and two minutes, twenty five seconds after the coach arrives, player gets to his feet and immediately imitates a newly born foal. I instruct coach that his player is done for the day.

Five minutes later, at line out in front of this coach, I am informed that the player's nose has stopped bleeding and he is fit to resume playing. I simply refuse stating that it is my decision. Coach walks onto the field before the lineout can be taken, stands in front of me and, politely, inform me that the homely young lass standing next to him is a qualified physio, has a medical degree and is employed directly by the RU and she has agreed that the player is fit to resume playing - why do a good contingent of attendants at my matches this season seem to be employed by the RU? In this instance, however, it could even be true as on an adjacent pitch there were county trials for ladies in progress!

I respond, politely, that I do not care if the Lord himself had declared the player fit, in this instance, my decision is final and the player was not to take any further action in this match and for him to leave the pitch immediately. His response was to turn to the player and instruct him to replace one of his team mates on the pitch. My immediate response was to state that if he set as much as a stud on the pitch, I would red card him immediately and his coach with him. He did not resume playing.

However, because nothing I do seems straightforward, at the bar I was approached by one of the coaches who had been with the ladies and he stated that under no circumstances could a referee over rule qualified medical personnel. I had officially been advised that the player was fit to play by qualified personnel and I had no right to threaten a coach with a RC. Had I issued a RC, the match could have been declared null and void and a replay would have been ordered.

Having been approached by two coaches, the physio and now this clown since the final whistle, all very civilised I must add, I simply pointed out to this guy that I had stood by my decision and as far as I was concerned, the matter was over and the away team went through 10 - 0.

My SS has now been in touch wanting full details! Such fun.

NM

 

[RobLev]

...politely, inform me that the homely young lass standing next to him is a qualified physio, has a medical degree and is employed directly by the RU and she has agreed that the player is fit to resume playing...

...

However, because nothing I do seems straightforward, at the bar I was approached by one of the coaches who had been with the ladies and he stated that under no circumstances could a referee over rule qualified medical personnel.

...

I missed the bit where the physio was stated to be a fully qualified neurologist.

If I want an opinion on my gas boiler, I don't ask a joiner; if I want an opinion on a head injury, I don't ask a physio.

 

[RobLev]

More specifically; the physio has no/insufficient qualification in neurology to enable her to overrule the protocol. If you let him back on, you are not therefore following the protocol; which specifially states (paraphrasing two points) that if a player displays any symptoms following a head injury he may not return to play that day. Unless she is denying that staying down for several minutes after an impact with the head, and thereafter being wobbly on his feet, are not relevant symptoms, then she is asking you to ignore the protocol.

The fact that she is quoted as saying "He is OK now", rather than "There was nothing wrong with him other than a nosebleed" suggests she doesn't deny the symptoms.

In any event, putting my lawyer hat on, if I was acting for the player and you'd let him back on and he thereafter sufffered severe brain damage in a second head impact, I'd have your metaphorical guts for garters in the ensuing legal claim... She and the coach would have been co-defendants, of course, but that would be no consolation to you. The fact that she wanted to play fast and loose with protocols specifically in place to protect my client gives you no licence to do so.

The IRB regulation, of course, is mandatory; anyone suspected to be suffering from concussion must be removed from play immediately and take no further part in the match.


...but I don't think you can technically RC the coach :biggrin: