confused maul question

[dacian]

New zealand vs England 2nd test 2014.
Time 57:48 of the game (1:19:19 of the video) link below

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xgf-B98C9KQ

Defender no.10 has his hands on the ball wrestling to take it away from the attacker, other players from both sides join in - so isn't this a MAUL already ??? - attacker and defender both go to ground wrestling for the ball and the referee calls a penalty against the defender for not rolling away???

my take is this:

-a maul has taken place
-the maul collapses not as a result of foul play
-ball is not immediately available for play
therefore a scrum should be awarded for the team moving forward since they both had the hands on the ball 17.6.b and 17.6.c

from what i read in irblaws/maul clarification 7 2011:
(c) At a collapsed maul there is no obligation in Law for players to roll away unless a ruck subsequently occurs.


Had the referee called a ruck subesquent the collapsed maul? but how could that be a ruck since the ball seemingly had not touched the ground?

What is your take on this? thank you

 

[Phil E]

Did the referee call Maul? Did he not consider it a maul, but just a prolonged tackle?
Sometimes you see a tackle start and wait for it to go to ground, but it doesn't and you have to decide, do I wait a little longer, or do I call maul. It's a judgement thing.

However assuming it was a maul, and was unplayable, the scrum put in would go to the team who didn't take the ball into the maul, so not immediately available equals a maul turnover, NOT a put in to the team going forward. That would be if we didn't know who had possession to start with, but we do because you said No 10 was trying to take it off the attacker, so the attacker had initial possession and therefore took it into the resulting maul.

 

[dacian]

tks Phil for quick answer.

i dont thhink it was a prolonged tackle since defender had his hands on the ball so not trying to take the attacker down and other players from both teams immediately joined therefore i believe this should have been called a maul, so i am not satisfied with the prolonged tackle explanation

also to your second comment from what i see both attacker and defender had their hands on the ball before maul begun....

 

[Phil E]

also to your second comment from what i see both attacker and defender had their hands on the ball before maul begun....

But who had the ball to start with? It only goes to the team going forward if you can't answer that question.

 

[damo]

This was discussed thoroughly at the time. The pretty strong consensus was that Peyper got it wrong and it should have been a scrum to England (or perhaps back to where he was playing advantage for previously).

For a more interesting and contentious example, try and find the first test one where Fekitoa was PK'ed for the same offence in what was arguably a maul (although in that case the consensus was that the ref was probably correct).

 

[dacian]

This was discussed thoroughly at the time. The pretty strong consensus was that Peyper got it wrong and it should have been a scrum to England (or perhaps back to where he was playing advantage for previously).

For a more interesting and contentious example, try and find the first test one where Fekitoa was PK'ed for the same offence in what was arguably a maul (although in that case the consensus was that the ref was probably correct).

Thank you for reply, it feels good to know I was not alone in spotting this, especially since I only started watching rugby recently and I am in the process of educating myself about the laws of this game.I like this sport a lot but sometimes the referee makes the game confusing but probably the laws of the game have some loopholes themselves and i guess the speed of the game is too much for the naked eye to see it all and take the correct decision each and every time.

I am going to take a look at the other instance you mentioned tks again

 

[Browner]

.......but probably the laws of the game have some loopholes themselves and i guess the speed of the game is too much for the naked eye to see it all and take the correct decision each and every time.

Recount this whenever you are questioning something having seen a replay or a slow motion, good luck, when refereeing live it often ' seems' even quicker ..!

 

[Daftmedic]

And if your not sure you got it right sell the mistake like a good time share rep

 

[dacian]

Recount this whenever you are questioning something having seen a replay or a slow motion, good luck, when refereeing live it often ' seems' even quicker ..!

I think players and spectators alike were much happier back in the day when there weren't so many TV cameras recording each play from so many angles. Rugby seems very complex as opposed to other sports i.e. too many rules, exceptions to rules etc. (I am sure many players have a hard time thenselves understanding all intricacies in the laws) so it is clear to me the problem is not the referee but the complexity of the law itself.

That being said rugby is a great game and I hope it will catch a bigger following here in Romania in the near future!

 

[Rushforth]

I think players and spectators alike were much happier back in the day when there weren't so many TV cameras recording each play from so many angles. Rugby seems very complex as opposed to other sports i.e. too many rules, exceptions to rules etc. (I am sure many players have a hard time thenselves understanding all intricacies in the laws) so it is clear to me the problem is not the referee but the complexity of the law itself.

That being said rugby is a great game and I hope it will catch a bigger following here in Romania in the near future!

I think you've hit the nail on the head in one way, but it is not so much a problem that the laws are complex as one of the reasons rugby is such a fascinating sport. However, it is simply impossible to see everything as a referee - today I had my annual competent AR at the other side of a ruck confirming my guess in a friendly tournament - and even when there are teams of three mistakes get made.

That said (my opinion) welcome to the forums, whether you are a referee or not. Romania has a proud history in rugby, and as you may well know, were once considered a potential "Sixth Nation". And if you are a referee (or player for that matter) I wish you luck in bringing the Dacians back to that level of potential.

 

[OB..]

That being said rugby is a great game and I hope it will catch a bigger following here in Romania in the near future!

As you may know, Gloucesteshire and Oxfordshire are currently "twinned" with Romania for rugby development. Let's make it happen.