Didn't Richie carry it back?

DrSTU


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Mccaw tackled and placed the ball over the 22m so that the tackle was completed over the 22m. Joubert calls 'inside' and then they kick out. He then clarifies it by saying that 'I called inside originally'.
 

Ian_Cook


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At the 34th minute of the NZ-AU match, McCaw catches the restart well outside NZ's 22, is wrapped up and driven back and as he's brought to ground he reaches over the 22 line to lay the ball down. I think this captures the situation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nbxd5DVzXEo&feature=player_detailpage#t=2495.

NZ kicks the ball out on the full, and CJ gives them the gain in ground. Why?:confused:


[LAWS]19.1 THROW-IN
NO GAIN IN GROUND
(b) When a team causes the ball to be put into their own 22. When a defending player plays
the ball from outside the 22 and it goes into that player’s 22 or in-goal area without
touching an opposition player and then that player or another player from that team kicks
the ball directly into touch before it touches an opposition player, or a tackle takes place or a
ruck or maul is formed
, there is no gain in ground. This applies when a defending player
moves back behind the 22 metre line to take a quick throw-in and then the ball is kicked
directly into touch[/LAWS]

Its where the ball is/was that counts, not where the body of the player was.

Was the ball in the 22m at the moment the tackle was effected?

Was a ruck formed subsequent to the tackle being effected?

You could argue that McCaw's knee touched the ground before the ball crossed the 22m, then when he placed the ball, he's carried it back.

You could also argue that a ruck formed subsequent to that (the presence of the Gold player with the headband - Moore? - makes it so), therefore the "no gain" restriction has expired

Its very much down to the referee's judgement. He said the tackle was completed inside. I think he's wrong on that, but the subsequent ruck makes his decision right even if it might have been for the wrong reason.

You could argue this both ways.
 
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DrSTU


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Plus I spend a lot more time listening and talking to South Africans than the average bear so the mumbling doesn't really matter to me.

Your sound quality was better than mine. Thanks.
 

RussRef


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Fair enough, but having finished watching the match:

1. CJ missed a blatant side entry at the breakdown that led directly to Conrad Smith's try.
2. The last minute was horrible: calling the ABs offside 15 m away from a tackle (no ruck), then YCing Whitelock when it was nowhere close to obvious he was trying to delay the tap, then not noticing that the replacement Ozzie halfback (White?) didn't kick through the mark.

Finally, will someone explain to me how the new engagement sequence suddenly makes it easier to call the crooked feed?
 

Dickie E


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then not noticing that the replacement Ozzie halfback (White?) didn't kick through the mark.

What does "kick through the mark" mean and why is it relevant?

Finally, will someone explain to me how the new engagement sequence suddenly makes it easier to call the crooked feed?

A feature of the new sequence is that the ref doesn't allow the feed until he is happy that the scrum is stationery and straight. It is therefore easier to detect a crooked feed and the SH can't complain that it wasn't his fault.
 

The Fat


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I believe that CJ got the RM tackle/gain in ground call wrong. RM is tackled outside the 22. He then exercises one of his options as the tackled player and places the ball back inside the 22. The tackle is not completed after he exercises one of his options, it is completed when he is held and brought to ground. If he had chosen to POP a pass to a support player running past and he did so before that player crossed the 22, I would expect that CJ would have called it differently.

I'm trying not to watch replays of this game.
 

Ian_Cook


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1. CJ missed a blatant side entry at the breakdown that led directly to Conrad Smith's try.

This would be the Gold 12 (AAC) tackle on Black 6 (Luatua) at 50:44? If so, then yes, I agree; side entry by Black 19 (Retallick). At the same time, Gold 12 played at the ball while on his knees then made no attempt to roll away. Is it an offence to illegally clean out a player who is himself illegally slowing the ball down? Probably, but in that case, go back to the first offence by Gold 12

Was either offence material? Not IMO, as the ball was already available... play on!

2. The last minute was horrible: calling the ABs offside 15 m away from a tackle (no ruck)...

One man's tackle is another man's ruck. Refs call really. I agree with you that it wasn't a ruck, but Black should not have taken the risk so close to their line and simply got back to the HMF.

...then YCing Whitelock when it was nowhere close to obvious he was trying to delay the tap, then not noticing that the replacement Ozzie halfback (White?) didn't kick through the mark.

I thought the YC on Whitelock was fair enough. I don't believe his "accidental" heel-kicking of the ball was accidental at all, and then he tried to tap the ball back to the Gold player. Silly to mess around like that so close to the line. He should have just left it.

That said, Gold 21 certainly did a great job of milking it, kicking the ball away (not accidental either IMO) as he shoved Whitelock back.

Finally, will someone explain to me how the new engagement sequence suddenly makes it easier to call the crooked feed?

It has simply been made a priority. As many have pointed out in the NZ v AUS thread, it IS easier when the scrum is square and stable.
 

damo


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The gain in ground one was wrong but had CJ not said "inside" to the halfback they wouldn't have kicked it out of the full and so it wouldn't have been an issue. No dramas really. He got a very similar incident wrong where NZ took a QT inside their 22m, but the LoT was outside the 22m, and then kicked it into touch on the full. It has been established now that this constitutes taking it back into the 22m so there shouldn't have been a gain in ground.

Now that we are listing incidents from the game. , I wasn't entirely sure about the McCaw PK at 26:00. Looked to me like there was no tackle and so there was no requirement to come through a gate. Nor am I convinced the previous breakdown was a ruck so he didn't have to get back onside. Thoughts?
 

Taff


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.... Its where the ball is/was that counts, not where the body of the player was. .. Was the ball in the 22m at the moment the tackle was effected?
I'm not so sure that it is the ball that counts TBH Ian. Law reference? I can see why Russref is confused. RMc caught the ball and was tackled outside the 22. He then places the ball inside the 22. I would have said that Black "caused the ball to be put into their own 22" ie no gain in ground as per 19.1(b). If Black didn't cause the ball to be put inside the 22, who did? Yes there was a tackle, but the tackle was outside the 22 as well; and my understanding is that any tackle, ruck or maul has to be inside the 22 to cancel the "taken back in".

Fair enough, the Ref had to make a split-second decision, but I wonder if he would make the same decision if he could see it again in slo-mo.
 
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Ian_Cook


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Now that we are listing incidents from the game. , I wasn't entirely sure about the McCaw PK at 26:00. Looked to me like there was no tackle and so there was no requirement to come through a gate. Nor am I convinced the previous breakdown was a ruck so he didn't have to get back onside. Thoughts?


I agree, there is no tackle, ruck or maul. Black 9 goes to oick up a loose ball and looses his feet along with a Gold player (5?), and McCaw comes from a couple of metres to the side to go for the ball.

This is a Law 14 situation therefore general play and players can approch from any direction.
 

Rassie

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I agree, there is no tackle, ruck or maul. Black 9 goes to oick up a loose ball and looses his feet along with a Gold player (5?), and McCaw comes from a couple of metres to the side to go for the ball.

This is a Law 14 situation therefore general play and players can approch from any direction.
If a player is in front of a team-mate in possession of the ball, or in front of a team-mate who last played the ball, they will be offside if they:

Actively try to play the ball
 

Toby Warren


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For me there should have been no gain in ground. CJ made a split second call and communicated it well at the time.
 

Ian_Cook


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If a player is in front of a team-mate in possession of the ball, or in front of a team-mate who last played the ball, they will be offside if they:

Actively try to play the ball


True, but that is not what happened here.

McCaw came in from the side. (not in front of the ball) and in any case, CJ didn't PK him for offside, he PK'd him for coming in from the side at the tackle (watch his secondary signal at 26:07)

Except, it wasn't a tackle.
 
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Rassie

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True, but that is not what happened here.

McCaw came in from the side. (not in front of the ball) and in any case, CJ didn't PK him for offside, he PK'd him for coming in from the side at the tackle (watch his secondary signal at 26:07)

Except, it wasn't a tackle.
Just had a look at it and no 9 never had the ball. He came around try to grab it and no 5 I think secured possession with 9 lying next to him. Then Richie came in from the side went on one knee and tried to grab the ball.

Penalty
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3Jc2dJtrhVU
 

damo


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Penalty for what?

Please be precise. Exactly what do you think Joubert gave the PK for?
 

Ian_Cook


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Just had a look at it and no 9 never had the ball. He came around try to grab it and no 5 I think secured possession with 9 lying next to him. Then Richie came in from the side went on one knee and tried to grab the ball.

Penalty
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3Jc2dJtrhVU

You're seeing it completely differently from me, and you are seeing it after reviewing the video several times. CJ gets one look at full speed. Think about that for a minute.

You don't even know what the PK was for. You're saying offside. It wasn't.


damo.

Keep an eye out. I smell some gish gallop coming. :biggrin:
 
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Rassie

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You're seeing it completely differently from me, and you are seeing it after reviewing the video several times. CJ gets one look at full speed. Think about that for a minute.

You don't even know what the PK was for. You're saying offside. It wasn't.


damo.

Keep an eye out. I smell some gish gallop coming. :biggrin:
McCaw went of his feet? One knee on the ground is not on your feet? The commentators said side entry. Never heard Joubert call it.
 

damo


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Watch the secondary signal. It is clearly for in the side.

His knee briefly touches the leg of a Wallaby on the ground so I could live with that being the PK, though that would be harsh IMO. It's not like he has dived off his feet to kill the ball, nor has he actually played the ball whilst his knee is on the player as he gets back onto his feet before reaching in for the ball. It isn't really what is anticipated by 14.2(a) or (b). But OK

Would a better bet be a simple 10.1(d): Blocking the ball?
 
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