Dip and Pick at scrum

Accylad


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I can't find a previous thread on this issue....

Has anyone seen an increase (as I have) in the technique I have had decribed to me as "dip and pick" since the new engagement sequence came in this season?

(Dip and pick is where one of the front rows gets under his opponent and forces him up. The "dipee" ends up bent double, head still in the engaged position with his feet off the ground and his neck at a horrible angle while his second row bends him in half.)

Until this season I had seen it only once.

I had one on Saturday and two in the Wednesday university match (one each side). Two other games this year have seen it occur. Chats with the props involved revealed that they were fully aware of what they were doing.

So far they have just had the loudest penalty whistle I can manage as soon as the prop's feet leave the ground and a bollocking. The bollocking leaves the miscreant in no doubt he is going for a 10 minute think about things if it re-occurs and no-one has done it twice yet. However, I am considering going straight to yellow. It looks horribly dangerous.

Anybody else seeing this? Any views on the stright to YC sanction :noyc:?
 

Taff


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Have you got a video of it, because I'm having difficulty imagining it.

Forcing an opponent into the air is a PK offence.

20.8(i) Lifting or forcing an opponent up.
A front row player must not lift an opponent in the air, or force an opponent upwards out of the scrum, either when the ball is being thrown in or afterwards. This is dangerous play.
Sanction: Penalty kick


Mind you, how do you decide if a player forced an opponent upwards, or whether the opponent "bailed out" under pressure is a whole thread on its own I would have thought.
 
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Lee Lifeson-Peart


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Whilst I can picture what you mean I'm at a loss as to why it should be more common since CBSY9 although I appreciate you are asking if your experience is replicated elsewhere. I have not reffed too much this season but IME this year I'd say no I've not seen it whilst reffing or watching.
 

OB..


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I haven't seen it, but if you went straight to Yellow, I would be happy to support your decision. If bad enough, a Red might get the dangerous and illegal practice banned.
 

The Fat


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I haven't seen it, but if you went straight to Yellow, I would be happy to support your decision. If bad enough, a Red might get the dangerous and illegal practice banned.

Agree.
If a smack in the chops can get you a straight YC and a king hit can get you a straight red, then I would say that attempting to turn your opposition prop into a quadraplegic by means of deliberate dangerous play in a scrum would certainly tick all the boxes for an immediate card and skip the warning.
 

John3822

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Most props of a certain vintage will recognise this as 'awarding your opposite number his wings'. Generally done by LH on TH and by TH and hooker combined on opposing hooker.

Basically LH will get his head under the chest of the TH and drive in and up. TH and hooker will pincer opposing hooker and again drive up.

I think the reason it possibly more prevalent since CBSY9 is that the removal of the hit/charge has given props and hookers more of an opportunity to change their body angles and get under their opposite number.

Look at the angles of the upper bodies once the scrum has yet, that will be the biggest clue.

Generally will only happen the once because once a prop has forced his opposite number into the air, he knows that he has established a domination which usually translates into a winning scrum throughout the game.
 

Taff


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.... Basically LH will get his head under the chest of the TH and drive in and up. TH and hooker will pincer opposing hooker and again drive up.
Years ago I was volunteered (and very stupidly agreed) to play THP when playing for London Welsh Colts. These days, I cringe when I think about it.

I'm 6' tall and the wrong build for a prop. If I'm honest I don't think the opposition LHP was doing anything illegal, but as soon as the ball came in and the pressure came on, either my arse would be lifted into the air ie I'd have my legs dangling off the ground and my head forced into my chest (to the extent that just breathing was impossible) or if possible I would bale out and stand up because I couldn't take the pressure. This happened at least 5 times, before I was moved back to the 2nd Row.

My point is that I was being forced into the air and it was nobodys fault - our pack was just shoving, as was theirs. The sad fact is that I was the weak link and couldn't handle the weight of both packs. So a player was forced into the air (me) but it seems unfair if the opposition were penalised for me being the wrong shape.
 

John3822

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Years ago I was volunteered (and very stupidly agreed) to play THP when playing for London Welsh Colts. These days, I cringe when I think about it.

I'm 6' tall and the wrong build for a prop. If I'm honest I don't think the opposition LHP was doing anything illegal, but as soon as the ball came in and the pressure came on, either my arse would be lifted into the air ie I'd have my legs dangling off the ground and my head forced into my chest (to the extent that just breathing was impossible) or if possible I would bale out and stand up because I couldn't take the pressure. This happened at least 5 times, before I was moved back to the 2nd Row.

My point is that I was being forced into the air and it was nobodys fault - our pack was just shoving, as was theirs. The sad fact is that I was the weak link and couldn't handle the weight of both packs. So a player was forced into the air (me) but it seems unfair if the opposition were penalised for me being the wrong shape.

Taff
Your opposing LH knew exactly what he was doing and it had nothing to do with being the wrong shape (after all Fran Cotton was over 6'). The LH didn't have to put you in the air but chose to do so as I say to establish that domination. The reason you ended up in the air was his technique was much better than yours, sorry.:sad:
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart


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Taff
Your opposing LH knew exactly what he was doing and it had nothing to do with being the wrong shape (after all Fran Cotton was over 6'). The LH didn't have to put you in the air but chose to do so as I say to establish that domination. The reason you ended up in the air was his technique was much better than yours, sorry.:sad:

Shape does matter - Joey Ramone was well over 6' but you wouldn't want him playing THP - not now he's dead anyway.

Hey Ho Let's Go

In fact that's my vote for the next scrum engagment call.
 

Decorily

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Shape matters alright.....but not the shape of the person, rather the shape that person gets their body into in the scrum.

I'm 6' 5" and have scrummaged reasonably well (so I'm told)!

Am coaching youths and getting 17 year olds to be aware of their 'shape' in the scrum is almost impossible!!
 

Accylad


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Whilst I can picture what you mean I'm at a loss as to why it should be more common since CBSY9 although I appreciate you are asking if your experience is replicated elsewhere. I have not reffed too much this season but IME this year I'd say no I've not seen it whilst reffing or watching.

I think the reason it is "new" is the return to the "old". With "hit and chase" there was less opportunity or need to do it as a way to assert dominance.

I think John3822 has it bang on - they know exactly what they are up to. Certainly I am going to assume that a L6/7 prop knows his craft.

Question is - penalty and bollocking as I am giving them now or pop him in the bin as a lesson for next week....?
 

Phil E


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Not seen it at all at levels 7/8.

It's easy to spot because the offending players body position is 'aeroplane taking off'.

I cant imagine me going yellow card first time, unless they had said they were going to do it. But it is dangerous play, so you would be justified in a Yellow.
 

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Have you got a video of it, because I'm having difficulty imagining it.

Forcing an opponent into the air is a PK offence.

20.8(i) Lifting or forcing an opponent up.
A front row player must not lift an opponent in the air, or force an opponent upwards out of the scrum, either when the ball is being thrown in or afterwards. This is dangerous play.
Sanction: Penalty kick


Mind you, how do you decide if a player forced an opponent upwards, or whether the opponent "bailed out" under pressure is a whole thread on its own I would have thought.

The scenario involves both feet being off the ground.
Accylad said:
Dip and pick is where one of the front rows gets under his opponent and forces him up. The "dipee" ends up bent double, head still in the engaged position with his feet off the ground and his neck at a horrible angle while his second row bends him in half.)
Can you describe how you do that to yourself when bailing out?

We used to do it regularly in the late 70s and the 80s.
 

Andrew1974


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I have seen this in couple of games this season.

in both games I had a scrum reset when it first happened, mostly because I had not seen what had caused the offence (in both cases far side of the scrum) but with a warning to make sure there was not any foul play.

Second occurrence penalty (I was paying more attention to the front rows, and observed them driving up) with a warning that foul play will not be tolerated.

No third time - so quite pleased with that as an outcome
 

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In this year's HEC game, Toulon did it to Cardiff and were pinged. It was very clear and very obvious.
 

Taff


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... Dip and pick is where one of the front rows gets under his opponent and forces him up. The "dipee" ends up bent double, head still in the engaged position with his feet off the ground and his neck at a horrible angle while his second row bends him in half. .... It looks horribly dangerous.
That sounds exactly what happened to me, but I still feel that my own 2nd Rows (and my lanky legs) were more responsible for me dangling with both feet off the ground, than the opposing prop was.

I can vouch that is really was horrible and dangerous.
 

Taff


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You second rows were driving up then. Why?

Decorilys nailed it. I'm taller than you're average prop and my lanky legs meant that my arse was further off the ground - ie the 2nd Rows were probably pointing up more than normal. I could keep my body weight up but the instant the pressure came on I just crumpled in half and if you can't go down, the only way is up.
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart


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Decorilys nailed it. I'm taller than you're average prop and my lanky legs meant that my arse was further off the ground - ie the 2nd Rows were probably pointing up more than normal. I could keep my body weight up but the instant the pressure came on I just crumpled in half and if you can't go down, the only way is up.



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