DRS v TMO v Tennis Hawkeye

Rushforth


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So not entirely unrelated to rugby, but inspired by the "appeal" system which exists in both cricket and tennis.

I'm not particularly interested in watching indeterminate replays over and over again. I can't do it on the pitch myself.

In cricket it would be relatively easy to "refer" a decision to the third umpire, and for the teams to have more appeals, but to simply get on with the game. And if the batsman proves actually out, give him out at the end of the over, or whatever. In tennis, hawk-eye is pretty quick and the only technique used (snickometers, hotspot and all that being irrelevant). Allow players a separate pool of appeals for when the umpire overrules, perhaps.

There are two issues in rugby where the TMO can genuinely add value. One is the grounding of the ball in-goal. The other is detection of foul play. Where grounding is uncertain, why not simply allow the conversion kick to be taken (generally takes over a minute nowadays at elite level, my players average 45 seconds at a guess). If it goes over, call it an "attempt at goal" if referred, and award two points EVEN IF the try is not certain. That is to say, conversion counts but try doesn't. And if there is an obvious drop/rip/whatever, award a single point, so that the kick is not pointless.

As to foul play, if not detected by the To3 give teams the right to appeal within 5 minutes, to both TMO and the opponents simultaneously (red button/phone) for an amount of money significant enough to individuals, but relatively insignificant amount for professional sport, but ten(+?) times as much if found to be ungrounded.

Long story short: no appeal system on the field of play for rugby. No long waits for almost-tries: reward the decent attack regardless. But similarly a reduction on the citing commission, with the TMO instead being able to advise the referee within 10 minutes of an incident of thuggery.

We have the technology!
 

Browner

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But a Citing allows a Lawyer with a support staff of many ample time to dream up a 'unbalanced' & 'unsighted' & 'unintended' defence that can't then be disproven. 5 mins won't be enough time - Hor-Will it ? :rc:
 
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damo


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I think the TMO is working pretty well as is. Not much that I would change about it at all. Generally they are getting the right decision, and not taking more time than necessary over it.

I certainly think letting a kicker have score 2 points when a try isn't scored is not a very good idea, to put it mildly.
 

Ian_Cook


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But a Citing allows a Lawyer with a support staff of many ample time to dream up a 'unbalanced' & 'unsighted' & 'unintended' defence that can't then be disproven. 5 mins won't be enough time - Hor-Will it ? :rc:

:nono:

I think the TMO is working pretty well as is. Not much that I would change about it at all. Generally they are getting the right decision, and not taking more time than necessary over it.

The amount of added time caused by the extended TMO powers in Super Rugby this year has been minimal... less than a minute per game over the whole competition. That is a very cheap price for getting many more decisions right.

One of the excellent side benefits of forward passes being included in the trial (even though I feel that aspect could be dropped when the final call is made) has been the focus placed on them. There is no doubt that the public, the players and the commentators are finally understanding that the pass must be judged out of the hands and not over the ground; i.e,. they are understanding the momentum view. Some of us had great difficulty in convincing some of the experienced referees at this site of this fact.



I certainly think letting a kicker have score 2 points when a try isn't scored is not a very good idea, to put it mildly.

Very mildly.

As for challenges, I'm not really a fan, but if it were to ever be allowed, then no more than two unsuccessful challenges per team per half. If a challenge is unsuccessful, the game restarts with a FK to the opposition at the place where the ball would next come into play.

e.g.

awarded try unsuccessfully challenged by defending team (blue), match restarts with FK to gold on half way after conversion attempt.

non-awarded try unsuccessfully challenged by attacking team (blue), match restarts with FK to gold on either the 5m line on the 22m line depending on how the ball got into the in-goal.
 

Waspsfan


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You know nothing about cricket! You can't carry on with the game and give the batsman out at the end of the over! Hilarious! What if he has added 20 more runs? Or has taken a single, and four more wickets have fallen at the other end! Madness.

I see no benefit at all of having the conversion and then deciding on the try. What a way to ruin the spectacle? Why the rush? The TMO hardly adds any time.

Player requested reviews in rugby - possible... But personally I would hate to see referees undermined like that - and make no mistake taking the decision to refer out of the ref's hand does undermine him.
 

Rushforth


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You know nothing about cricket! You can't carry on with the game and give the batsman out at the end of the over! Hilarious! What if he has added 20 more runs? Or has taken a single, and four more wickets have fallen at the other end! Madness.

Huh? I throw out a thought experiment in which the idea is that off-field officials retain powers to prevent howlers, and use other sports to illustrate it, and I know nothing and you pronounce madness?

I don't want to go further on the rugby side - I deliberately posted in non-rugby talk after all - but it is only in tennis where the nature of the game (set, match) makes it truly necessary to stop.

In terms of cricket, a single wrong decision by the umpires - I'm not talking of wasting referrals - can have a massive impact. A wicket not given might add 150 runs to the total; a wicket given could quite likely expose the tail, and lead to four more wickets, never mind that in a world of "ifs" another 200 runs might have been scored. This is generally accepted, even if a side-hard done by will be fuming. I don't see why it is madness to suggest that retroactive action could be taken.

By the way, Waspsfan, you do realise that you sound even more reactionary than those who were (are?) utterly against UDRS, right? There was (is?) a camp of old farts who were (are?) against the very concept, for the very good reason that "the umpire is always right".

(And yes, the roll of the dice goes both ways in test cricket. They've made their bed with UDRS. As we already have with TMOs, to some degree. In case it isn't obvious, I don't care too much about the howler of try/no try. Thuggery and recklessness would be cut down though, as to my OP)
 

OB..


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From the 1959 law book[LAWS]10.16 In case of any dispute relative to a try or a kick at goal where it is possible that an appeal may be made to the Board, the Referee shall allow the kick at goal, so that if the kick is successful, and the Board supports the appeal, the goal points may be added.[/LAWS]
The right to appeal applied only to points of law, not fact, and was removed in the 1969 rewrite.
 

Waspsfan


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I don't really know what your talking about. Wrong decision in cricket can have big consequences (agree), but you aren't bothered about 'try/no-try'? I don't get it. I'm lost on what point you are making now.

My reference to you knowing nothing about cricket was specifically related to the idea that you could carry on the game and give a batsmen out at the end of the over, which I already explained and stand by.
 

Phil E


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......v Hawkeye goal line technology. We have had all the cameras fitted, 6 on each goal. Looking forward to seeing it in action next month.

Incidentally,I am enjoying the Ashes on the Sky Sports iPad app, you can view Hawkeye on request for every single ball, from 3 angles. Amazing.
 
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Browner

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Thuggery and recklessness would be cut down though, as to my OP)

Now I can see the benefit, Hawkeye proving: any lack of directional shift of body weight, the direction that eyes were looking before & after downward thrust of boot , then angle & velocity of boot v balance ............. here comes the decision on Aussie Captain .....................wwwwoooooooooaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh :rc:
 

Rassie

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So not entirely unrelated to rugby, but inspired by the "appeal" system which exists in both cricket and tennis.

I'm not particularly interested in watching indeterminate replays over and over again. I can't do it on the pitch myself.

In cricket it would be relatively easy to "refer" a decision to the third umpire, and for the teams to have more appeals, but to simply get on with the game. And if the batsman proves actually out, give him out at the end of the over, or whatever. In tennis, hawk-eye is pretty quick and the only technique used (snickometers, hotspot and all that being irrelevant). Allow players a separate pool of appeals for when the umpire overrules, perhaps.

There are two issues in rugby where the TMO can genuinely add value. One is the grounding of the ball in-goal. The other is detection of foul play. Where grounding is uncertain, why not simply allow the conversion kick to be taken (generally takes over a minute nowadays at elite level, my players average 45 seconds at a guess). If it goes over, call it an "attempt at goal" if referred, and award two points EVEN IF the try is not certain. That is to say, conversion counts but try doesn't. And if there is an obvious drop/rip/whatever, award a single point, so that the kick is not pointless.

As to foul play, if not detected by the To3 give teams the right to appeal within 5 minutes, to both TMO and the opponents simultaneously (red button/phone) for an amount of money significant enough to individuals, but relatively insignificant amount for professional sport, but ten(+?) times as much if found to be ungrounded.

Long story short: no appeal system on the field of play for rugby. No long waits for almost-tries: reward the decent attack regardless. But similarly a reduction on the citing commission, with the TMO instead being able to advise the referee within 10 minutes of an incident of thuggery.

We have the technology!
Hawk-Eye or Eagle Eye or Virtual Eye, HOT SPOT and Snicko are all parts of DRS. Components.

With LBW if a batsman reviews a decision he saves his wicket only when the impact point is outside the stump line OR if the ball miss the stumps completely because the on field call is against the batsman.
If a batsman is not given out and the fielding side reviews the fielding side gets his wicket only when the impact point is inside the stump line or more than half the ball should hit the stumps because the ON FIELD CALL IS IN FAVOUR OF THE BATSMAN

You can not wait 10 minutes later or anything because its a game of trying to surpass each others totals. What if the game ended before the end of the over cause that guy smashes it for 6? They are strict about the times in cricket. Using that you will add couple of hours to the game which networks won't allow.

Its is not flawless but it guesses better than a human would. Taking it away at 50/50 decisions we will just accuse umpires instead of DRS.
 

Account Deleted

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So not entirely unrelated to rugby, but inspired by the "appeal" system which exists in both cricket and tennis.

I'm not particularly interested in watching indeterminate replays over and over again. I can't do it on the pitch myself.

In cricket it would be relatively easy to "refer" a decision to the third umpire, and for the teams to have more appeals, but to simply get on with the game. And if the batsman proves actually out, give him out at the end of the over, or whatever. In tennis, hawk-eye is pretty quick and the only technique used (snickometers, hotspot and all that being irrelevant). Allow players a separate pool of appeals for when the umpire overrules, perhaps.

There are two issues in rugby where the TMO can genuinely add value. One is the grounding of the ball in-goal. The other is detection of foul play. Where grounding is uncertain, why not simply allow the conversion kick to be taken (generally takes over a minute nowadays at elite level, my players average 45 seconds at a guess). If it goes over, call it an "attempt at goal" if referred, and award two points EVEN IF the try is not certain. That is to say, conversion counts but try doesn't. And if there is an obvious drop/rip/whatever, award a single point, so that the kick is not pointless.

As to foul play, if not detected by the To3 give teams the right to appeal within 5 minutes, to both TMO and the opponents simultaneously (red button/phone) for an amount of money significant enough to individuals, but relatively insignificant amount for professional sport, but ten(+?) times as much if found to be ungrounded.

Long story short: no appeal system on the field of play for rugby. No long waits for almost-tries: reward the decent attack regardless. But similarly a reduction on the citing commission, with the TMO instead being able to advise the referee within 10 minutes of an incident of thuggery.

We have the technology!

Sorry I'm failing to find anything to support this idea.
 

Phil E


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Hawkeye (the company) will be attending my stadium for testing soon. The battery of tests they do will take a whole day and involve people, dummies, ball shooting machines, people taking kicks, everything you could possibly think of. The list of tests they perform takes up several pages.
 

SimonSmith


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Hawkeye (the company) will be attending my stadium for testing soon. The battery of tests they do will take a whole day and involve people, dummies, ball shooting machines, people taking kicks, everything you could possibly think of. The list of tests they perform takes up several pages.

Who have you contracted in to be able to kick the ball at the goal?
 

Phil E


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Haha, very funny. Actually they bring a ball kicking machine with them that they can program to different speeds.
 

Rassie

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