Equalising U19 scrums post YC

[PeterH]

Sorry for long title...
couldn't think of a better one. I am slightly confused here obviously...

Last week - I YC'd a back in a U19 game... now bear in mind I rarely ref anything except seniors and was asked about 9:30 on Sunday morning to cover this one...

The miscreant's team then wanted to drop a flanker to "cover" the missing player at scrums...
I said "no" - "only drop if the oppo have a man off - to equalise scrum numbers"
their parents went mad but I stuck to my guns...

Can someone confirm the correct procedure if:

1. Scrum Player carded
2. Non-Scrum Player carded
3. Lack of available players leaves scrum position unfilled (injury or cards)
4. Lack of available players leaves non-scrum position unfilled (injury or cards)
   cheers

 

[willsie]

1. Scrum player carded sides must equalise numbers. 1 off means the 8's drop. 2 off means you play a 3-2-1 set up with the flankers obviously gone

2. non scrum player carded, my thoughts are deal with it.

3. law states scrum must always be equal despite the 'harshness' of this, if they cant fill a scrum then the opposition have to equal numbers but have the advantage of having the extra man (clubs will sometimes agree to match numbers depending on level)

4. as above

 

[The umpire]

If anyone, forward or back, gets sent off, YC or just plain injured and a team is therefore reduced to 14, no.8 must drop off the scrum. I know it looks wrong, but it isn't and there is good expanation of it in another thread, which I've copied below. (original by Deeps)

"The thinking is that at U19, the game is about running and passing not beefing it up in the scrum where, in any case, the push is limited to 1.5 metres and the wheel to 45 degrees. To remove a back would kill any decent chance of a running game at U19 so the hit is always taken in the scrum and by both teams as stated so that the numbers in the scrum remain even and balanced. The effect of putting the spare No 8 in the backs of the non offending side rarely seems to make a lot of difference in my experience as he just gets in the way.

You need to have this aspect of the U19 Variations on the tip of your tongue as it is a question often raised by ill informed coaches."

 

[Phil E]

The umpire is correct:

LAW 20: SCRUM
20.1 (f) In an 8 person scrum the formation must be 3-4-1, with the single
player (normally the Number 8) shoving on the 2 locks. The locks
must pack with their heads on either side of the hooker.
Exception: A team must have fewer than eight players in its
scrum when either the team cannot field a complete team, or a
player is sent off for Foul Play, or a player leaves the field because
of injury.
Even allowing for this exception, each team must always have at
least five players in a scrum.
If a team is incomplete, the scrum formation must be as follows:
If a team is without one player, then both teams must use a 3-4
formation (i.e. no No.8).If a team is without two players, then both teams must use a 3-2-1
formation (i.e. no flankers).
If a team is without three players, then both teams must use a 3-2
formation (i.e. only front rows and locks).

 

[Deeps]

newboy, I am just a little surprised that you did not consult the U19 Variations before you took on the game. LoTG pages 129 - 132 in the 2007 Edition; Law 20.1 (h) explains this particular case in point.

 

[PeterH]

Deeps - I did
I had it with me as well prior to game
I wasn't sure on "player" - as to whether it meant scrum or non-scrum player..
In my book it is 20.1.f (there is no g??)

I suppose I must have missed/misread:

Exception: A team must have fewer than eight players in its
scrum when either the team cannot field a complete team, or a
player is sent off for Foul Play, or a player leaves the field because
of injury.

My mistake... fair cop