Foul play?

Locke


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I’ve attached a 3 second clip that was shared in a local referee chat group, looking for opinions on the call.

Play on, PK, or YC?
 

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chbg


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Law 9.1: When a player and an opponent are running for the ball, neither player may charge or push the other except shoulder-to-shoulder.

Possession: An individual or team in control of the ball or who are attempting to bring it under control.

The actions of both appear as contemporaneous as they could be, so "play on" (loudly) for me at my level.
 

Locke


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I was the lone dissenter in the group in favor of “play on”, with five referees calling for a PK. I considered giving my view when I made the original post here but I had lost my confidence because 5 other referees in the group chimed in for PK.

I cited that same law @chbg but there was insistence in the group that the play contravened 9.4 and 9.14 and it was foul play, but I don’t see it.
 

Marc Wakeham


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Iagree it is play on. However I once witnessed in a pro game a Penalty Try given in such circumstances along with a YC. So opinion is divided.
 

Old Pig

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Looks bad. Maroon player has his arm extended, looks like he intended to block the bother player. I’d go PK.
 

Mipper


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I don’t see it as maroon player chasing the ball. I see it as maroon attempting to block blue, so PK for me.
 

smeagol


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To me, I see a maroon player using a shoulder to try and bump off the blue player. PK all day, don't think a YC is warranted based on there being another maroon defender to chase.
 

Locke


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To me, I see a maroon player using a shoulder to try and bump off the blue player. PK all day, don't think a YC is warranted based on there being another maroon defender to chase.
I see the same actions, except I see those actions being expressly permitted in law 9.1, quoted by chbg above.

Which law makes it illegal/foul play?
 

smeagol


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I see the same actions, except I see those actions being expressly permitted in law 9.1, quoted by chbg above.

Which law makes it illegal/foul play?

Shoulder-to-shoulder IMO impiles they're jostling for position side by side. The bump/shove IMO pushes the act into playing some off the ball (9.4)
 

Stu10

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I say clear penalty... there is no jostling shoulder to shoulder, and maroon is not running for the ball... maroon is clearly second to the ball, and isn't even looking at the ball... he is looking at the player the whole time, and charges into blue with an arm extended across blue's chest... he is clearly targeting the blue player with the intention to obstruct, he shows no intention to play the ball and is not in a position to play the ball.

A yellow card seems very harsh unless the kicker was through on goal with no defenders between him and the line... in which case it would also be a penalty try.
 

Locke


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I suppose we just see if differently. 9.1 says players may “charge” and “push” while running for the ball, as long as it’s shoulder to shoulder, and I don’t see anything in the original clip that is outside of that.
 

Stu10

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Found a similar scenario in one of my matches from the spring:

Link to match vid - kick was at ~34:57 match time/40:47 video time
That is not as clear cut as the OP... this looks more like a shoulder to should jostle IMHO... I can't see a clear push, but that might be the angle.

Just before that, though, I'm not convinced the ball left the scrum-half's hand at the penalty restart, and then it looked like a knock on from the first pass... what happened there?
 

Stu10

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I suppose we just see if differently. 9.1 says players may “charge” and “push” while running for the ball, as long as it’s shoulder to shoulder, and I don’t see anything in the original clip that is outside of that.

I disagree...

When a player and an opponent are running for the ball, neither player may charge or push the other except shoulder-to-shoulder.

I interpret this as meaning you can lean shoulders into each other when shoulder-to-shoulder... not that you can shove someone over legally when you are positioned shoulder-to-shoulder. "Shoulder-to-shoulder" is an action, not a position or scenario, IMHO.

Also, you can't run at someone and smash them in the shoulder with your shoulder and call that legal "shoulder-to-shoulder" contact, which is closer to what happens in the OP.
 
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Locke


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You should re-read the law...
I’m always worried about my tone coming across as hostile when communicating by text only. I have no sarcasm or disrespect in my thoughts when I say that I don’t know any other way to interpret the end of the sentence, “except for shoulder to shoulder” to mean that the players may charge and push if they are shoulder to shoulder, and not otherwise.
 

Locke


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I disagree...



I interpret this as meaning you can lean shoulders into each other when shoulder-to-shoulder... not that you can shove someone over legally when you are positioned shoulder-to-shoulder.
I’ve just seen this response. I see your point but I do not interpret the sentence that way.

I came up with an example sentence to show how I am reading the law:
“When an employee wants to enter the manager’s office, he may not do so, except to return the manager’s key.”

To me, the clear reading of the example sentence is that, if the employee is returning the manager’s key, he may enter the manager’s office. I am reading the law the same way.

I am enjoying this debate and discussion of ideas, for what it’s worth. I intend no personal insult or disrespect.
 

Stu10

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I’m always worried about my tone coming across as hostile when communicating by text only. I have no sarcasm or disrespect in my thoughts when I say that I don’t know any other way to interpret the end of the sentence, “except for shoulder to shoulder” to mean that the players may charge and push if they are shoulder to shoulder, and not otherwise.
Sorry, I re-read my post, it wasn't a good reply and I deleted it, then started again.

I wasn't intending to be hostile, though my response was brief and direct... I thought you had simply misread that law as "When a player and an opponent are running for the ball, either player may charge or push the other...", rather than "When a player and an opponent are running for the ball, neither player may charge or push the other..."
... then I realised we had both interpreted the end of the sentence completed differently.

Apologies if I caused offence.
 
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smeagol


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That is not as clear cut as the OP... this looks more like a shoulder to should jostle IMHO... I can't see a clear push, but that might be the angle.

Just before that, though, I'm not convinced the ball left the scrum-half's hand at the penalty restart, and then it looked like a knock on from the first pass... what happened there?

Re: tap, given where I was at, I probably didn't have sight of the ball, but did see/hear the tap.

Re: knock-on, the ball was passed behind the intended recipient and went backwards.

For the clear push, at around 40:51 watch the red player's arms, there's a clear push of the blue chaser. It's probably a combination of the angle (stationary cam about 15-20 ft off the ground), the choppiness of the stream, and the wind affecting the camera (there was a good 20+mph crosswind the entire match).
 

Stu10

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I’ve just seen this response. I see your point but I do not interpret the sentence that way.

I came up with an example sentence to show how I am reading the law:
“When an employee wants to enter the manager’s office, he may not do so, except to return the manager’s key.”

To me, the clear reading of the example sentence is that, if the employee is returning the manager’s key, he may enter the manager’s office. I am reading the law the same way.

I am enjoying this debate and discussion of ideas, for what it’s worth. I intend no personal insult or disrespect.

This is arguably another law that could be phrased better!

Like I said, I think shoulder-to-shoulder is an action, not a position, circumstance or condition, and therefore is not giving permission to shove or push with hands or arms.

What do others think?
 

smeagol


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This is arguably another law that could be phrased better!

Like I said, I think shoulder-to-shoulder is an action, not a position, circumstance or condition, and therefore is not giving permission to shove or push with hands or arms.

What do others think?

IMO, shoulder-to-shoulder means two opposing players are running next to each other. Could someone get bumped incidentally? Yes. But, that does not give a player the right to intentionally impede the opponent's pursuit.
 
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