[Tackle] Going to ground to gather ball Vs. tackled

[Huck2Spit]

Ball is loose boouncing around from a bad pass, Red player goes to ground--gathers ball. Gold player, on his feet, is ...immediately there going for the "jackle". Red holds on and is PK'd for not releasing.
Correct decision?
Red's options were same as if he were tackled (plus he could have got to his feet) and gold could go right for ball since no tackle and he never had him to release him.
Thoughts, Thanks.

 

[damo]

Spot on.

 

[Blackberry]

The guy on his feet must play the ball, only the ball, then he is king. Any resistance from the guy on the ground is PING! Coaches: make this your first task for training this week.


If an opponent in open play is on the ground with the ball, play the ball, not him...even if he tries to resist; if you do that, and only that, the ref will find it easy to award you a penalty if the guy on the ground doesn't release. LEAVE THE GUY ALONE, PLAY THE BALL. That way you either get the ball or a penalty.

 

[Nigib]

What are people's views when the player on their feet wraps arms around the player on the ground and holds the ball, at the same time trapping the player?

 

[Christy]

What are people's views when the player on their feet wraps arms around the player on the ground and holds the ball, at the same time trapping the player?

Penalty , for playing the player & not the ball.
The ref needs to do his bit too.
Player A gone to ground to gather loose ball
Player B is entitled access to ball .
Player A is entitled freedom to get up / pass ball / kick ball ,,providing done IMEDIATELY
Player B is not entitled to smother player as you suggest , as it does not meet above criteria .

So for me the player smothering another player already on floor holding ball
Is going to be penalised ,

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

The guy on his feet must play the ball, only the ball, then he is king. Any resistance from the guy on the ground is PING! Coaches: make this your first task for training this week.


If an opponent in open play is on the ground with the ball, play the ball, not him...even if he tries to resist; if you do that, and only that, the ref will find it easy to award you a penalty if the guy on the ground doesn't release. LEAVE THE GUY ALONE, PLAY THE BALL. That way you either get the ball or a penalty.

Only is an absolute, there are other options available to defender

Penalty , for playing the player & not the ball.
The ref needs to do his bit too.
Player A gone to ground to gather loose ball
Player B is entitled access to ball .
Player A is entitled freedom to get up / pass ball / kick ball ,,providing done IMEDIATELY
Player B is not entitled to smother player as you suggest , as it does not meet above criteria .

So for me the player smothering another player already on floor holding ball
Is going to be penalised ,

What law prevents the arriving player from using his hands to hold or push the gathering player from getting to his feet? I do not know. I cannot find a law that gives the gathering player the right to stand up.

 

[ChrisR]

The guy on his feet must play the ball, only the ball, then he is king. Any resistance from the guy on the ground is PING! Coaches: make this your first task for training this week.


If an opponent in open play is on the ground with the ball, play the ball, not him...even if he tries to resist; if you do that, and only that, the ref will find it easy to award you a penalty if the guy on the ground doesn't release. LEAVE THE GUY ALONE, PLAY THE BALL. That way you either get the ball or a penalty.

Can you cite Laws for this?

 

[Christy]

Only is an absolute, there are other options available to defender



What law prevents the arriving player from using his hands to hold or push the gathering player from getting to his feet? I do not know. I cannot find a law that gives the gathering player the right to stand up.

Hi kurt , please read nigib , posted question again .
And then read my original answer in reply to nigib question.
It relates to a player on floor with ball in hand & opposition going to ball carrier from his on his feet , keeping ball carrier on floor & wrapping his arms around him , so ball cant be released .
You cant do this ,,its a clear penalty .
Law 14 .

 

[Pegleg]

What law prevents the arriving player from using his hands to hold or push the gathering player from getting to his feet? I do not know. I cannot find a law that gives the gathering player the right to stand up.

14.1 PLAYERS ON THE GROUND
(a) A player with the ball must immediately do one of three things:
• Get up with the ball
• Pass the ball
• Release the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick
(b) A player who passes or releases the ball must also get up or move away from it at once.
Sanction: Penalty kick
(c) A player without the ball must not lie on, over, or near the ball to prevent opponents getting possession of it.
Sanction: Penalty kick
(d) A player on the ground must not tackle or attempt to tackle an opponent.
Sanction: Penalty kick

14.2 PLAYERS ON THEIR FEET
(a) Falling over the player on the ground with the ball. A player must not intentionally fall
on or over a player with the ball who is lying on the ground.
Sanction: Penalty kick
(b) Falling over players lying on the ground near the ball. A player must not intentionally fall on or over players lying on the ground with the ball between them or near them.
Sanction: Penalty kick

The bit I've underlined tells you they can stand up. However, if before he's done that an arriving player has contested the ball. the man on his feet is king.
The man on his feet is not explicitly told not the play the man. However, the inference of the quoted law 14.2 suggests that he is not to "kill" the ball. Therefore, allowing him to rip the ball but not hold it in to the player on the ground is logical.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

Hi kurt , please read nigib , posted question again .
And then read my original answer in reply to nigib question.
It relates to a player on floor with ball in hand & opposition going to ball carrier from his on his feet , keeping ball carrier on floor & wrapping his arms around him , so ball cant be released .
You cant do this ,,its a clear penalty .
Law 14 .

PK on who?

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

14.1 PLAYERS ON THE GROUND
(a) A player with the ball must immediately do one of three things:
• Get up with the ball
• Pass the ball
• Release the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick
(b) A player who passes or releases the ball must also get up or move away from it at once.
Sanction: Penalty kick
(c) A player without the ball must not lie on, over, or near the ball to prevent opponents getting possession of it.
Sanction: Penalty kick
(d) A player on the ground must not tackle or attempt to tackle an opponent.
Sanction: Penalty kick

14.2 PLAYERS ON THEIR FEET
(a) Falling over the player on the ground with the ball. A player must not intentionally fall
on or over a player with the ball who is lying on the ground.
Sanction: Penalty kick
(b) Falling over players lying on the ground near the ball. A player must not intentionally fall on or over players lying on the ground with the ball between them or near them.
Sanction: Penalty kick

The bit I've underlined tells you they can stand up. However, if before he's done that an arriving player has contested the ball. the man on his feet is king.
The man on his feet is not explicitly told not the play the man. However, the inference of the quoted law 14.2 suggests that he is not to "kill" the ball. Therefore, allowing him to rip the ball but not hold it in to the player on the ground is logical.

Does arriving player have to let him up? You and I know the answer. So then why does arriving player have to allow releasing or passing.

14.2 is very significant and very specific as is uses Falling and in now way has to do with a player on his feet, inferring or nor.

Logic would tell us that if we do not have to allow a gathering player up, the other options are also nulled. If we want to use logic.

 

[Pegleg]

He prevents the options by taking the ball not holding it in for a PK.

You let the player up but you take the ball from him first!

 

[Christy]

PK on who?

In relation to nigib post.
I did say the ref needs to do his bit too ( by this i mean examine whats happening , with view to whos playing with in the laws & who isnt )

Player A has gone to ground to gather loose ball.( he remains on ground )
He must now comply to law as peg leg paste of laws.above.
Law 14.1 A ...otherwise opponents get a penalty.

Player A has gone to ground to gather loose ball. ( he remains on ground )
Opposition comes in straight away & prevents player A from releasing ball .
As nigib question above ( by smothering player by wrapping his arms around player A )
The ref now needs to read that player A is not complying to law 14.2A.
I know the law reads he must no fall on player on floor who has ball , but i beleive it is by same merrit fair to say he can not deliberatley fall on / around / wrap player up on floor who has ball.
Penalty goes to player A ,,as in team A get the penalty .

 

[OB..]

Pegleg is absolutely right. If a player falls on the ball, an opponet may not play the player, but if he plays the ball, the player on the ground must release it.

In other words you cannot prevent him from getting up, but you can prevent him from keeping the ball when he does so.

If he tries to hold on to the ball when you are (legally) trying to take it, he can be penalised.

 

[Christy]

Sorry , in scenario 2 ,,it should read team B the opposition , is not complying to law 14.2 A.
Appologies for confusing matters here

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

I cannot figure out what in the hel* you guys are thinking. I'll reread and reread. the only thing I can figure is that several posters equate a bearhug to falling down in 14.2

The only thing an arriving player cannot do (aside from law 10) in the gather the ball-no tackle is fall on the ball gathering player or around that player to prevent ball from coming out.

The gatherer made the ball unplayable by going to ground to gather. That is his decision. The defender has done nothing wrong to this point. In fact the defender can still defend by "not letting up" iaw 14.2, not allowing him to release, not allowing him to pass. Nothing in law 14 prevents him from defending except by falling on opponent.

The defender can still play rugby nothing unique has happened.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

P.

In other words you cannot prevent him from getting up, but you can prevent him from keeping the ball when he does so.

The first part of this sentence. Are you saying the bearhug aforementioned falls under 14.2, or are you using a general expression of law. If so what law?

 

[Blackberry]

Can you cite Laws for this?

Are you saying its WRONG????????????

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

The guy on his feet must play the ball, only the ball, then he is king. Any resistance from the guy on the ground is PING! Coaches: make this your first task for training this week.


If an opponent in open play is on the ground with the ball, play the ball, not him...even if he tries to resist; if you do that, and only that, the ref will find it easy to award you a penalty if the guy on the ground doesn't release. LEAVE THE GUY ALONE, PLAY THE BALL. That way you either get the ball or a penalty.

Can you cite Laws for this?

Are you saying its WRONG????????????

Going for ball is good coaching advice, I but ONLY the ball is not correct. We can only apply law

 

[ChrisR]

Pegleg is absolutely right. If a player falls on the ball, an opponet may not play the player, but if he plays the ball, the player on the ground must release it.

In other words you cannot prevent him from getting up, but you can prevent him from keeping the ball when he does so.

If he tries to hold on to the ball when you are (legally) trying to take it, he can be penalised.

Please cite law or are you supporting the #1 Rugby Myth: "You have to let him up"