Gold v Blue Colts League Match

Donal1988


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Hi everyone,

Refereed a colts level game this morning Gold v Blue. Captains joked with me at the coin toss that there were a few hungover heads after Munster v Northampton and the mood seemed jovial - Blue captain suggested his props were very inexperienced and stressed they may need to go uncontested. Gold captain said no problem. At kick off this seemed like a walk in the park. How wrong was I. . . .

25 minutes into first half and there is a tackle made by Blue. A ruck sets up with two Blue players on the wrong side - not interfering with play. They can't move out of way but aren't affecting play at all. Gold have secured the ball but take their time. Blue counter ruck. I'm conscious of the men on the ground and blow my whistle for unplayable (as a management tool; the ball actually was playable) but too late and I could see it coming. Blue #4 (who was lying on the ground) tried to get out of the ruck and and a Gold #6 came into the ruck legally but at pace. The result was a horrible knee to the face, breaking Blue #4s nose.

I saw it, it wasn't intentional or even reckless; just a horrible accident. The result was chaos - Blue coach had to be restrained and tried to get at Gold #6 and it took the presence of several spectators to restrain the Blue coach and Gold coach from each other. I told the captains I was headed home and went to leave. Both coaches approached me about a minute later as I was leaving the field, apologised, told me they calmed down and would remain in the technical areas for the remainder of the match.

We restarted with a scrum and the half continued without incident. Both coaches approached me again at half time and the three of us had a friendly chat talking about the Heineken Cup matches wehad seen over the weekend. The mood seemed lightened and the half time score - Gold 3, Blue 7

13 minutes into the second half, Gold were in possession inside the Blue 22 area. After a ruck, the Gold scrumhalf threw a pass to his flyhalf. This pass hit the ground and the flyhalf gathered it. The Blue #9 rushed forward and kicked the ball carrier across the legs. I judged the players intentions to be aimed at the bouncing ball rather than the ball carrier and deemded the act reckless.

Several Gold players pushed and shoved the Blue #9 and Blue #11 took exception to this. I counted him punching two separate players and when the teams were separated he was still trying to get at the opposition screaming and cursing at them, being held back by his captain. He got a red card and #9 got a yellow card.

Gold got a try when Blue were reduced to 13 men and the scrumhalf returned to the field. Literally, 2 minutes later Gold made a long clearance kick and the Blue #9 was under the high ball and fumbled it. I judged that he knocked on and whistled for it. He tried to argue the decision. I told him I could change a scrum to a penalty easily. He continued to dissent saying at one point "it wasn't a knock on, you can't ref a ****ing match" - he got a second yellow and therefore a red.

Gold got another try in his absense to make it 17-7. I wasnt happy with my positioning for this try but I know I got the call right. Blue had a scrum on own 5m and passed back to flyhalf who was blocked down and a try was scored. Had a clear view but over anticiapted and was 10m away from the try.

Anyway it was quite a game to say the least - on top of that I injured my ankle with 5 minutes to go which is now painful.

Hope you've found this a useful read. I learnt a lot today.
 

Phil E


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Hope you've found this a useful read. I learnt a lot today.

And that is the key Donal. There is always something positive you can get from these types of matches.

What could I have done different?
Did I miss any signs?
Should I have spoken to xxx earlier?
etc.
etc.
 

Donal1988


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Phil the two biggest things Im taking from this game is:

1 - The quick whistle. I was conscious of it before hand but I saw the dangers of it today. I did blow for a quick whistle. However making that call 2 seconds sooner might have had a massive impact.

2 - Over anticipating. I got caught out of position for the second Gold try due to thinking too far ahead. It neglected the here and now for what was coming up (managing the offside etc)
 

Davet

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2 serious incidents of foul play that you have decided were accidental.

They must have been at the least careless, and possibly reckless if they were not deliberate.

I would suggest that a YC as a minimum for each would help concentrate minds, and would have avoided the players loss of trust in you.

You are not there to be nice and understanding. You are there to ensure that the game is managed properly.
 

Donal1988


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Davet one incident I described as a freak accident. I couldn't have properly justified a card. Rugby is a physical game and sometimes people get nasty injuries without their being a culprit.

Im confused as to the which other incident I called accidental? I did say that the scrumhalf who kicked his opponent across the shins was unintentional - the ball bounced and he swung a leg - but you'll see that I described it as reckless and gave the guy a yellow card.

To summarise:

Gold #6 breaks opponents nose - no foul play
Blue #9 kicks opponent - reckless play - yellow card
Blue #11 punches opponents - serious foul play = Red Card
Blue #9 dissents decision - second yellow card = Red Card
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart


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I did say that the scrumhalf who kicked his opponent across the shins was unintentional - the ball bounced and he swung a leg - but you'll see that I described it as reckless and gave the guy a yellow card.

I sent someone off last season for "similar" and he got 5 weeks!!??

His tackle was more two footed Ron "Chopper" Harris type
 

Donal1988


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Ah no LLP it wasn't that bad at all. He kicked the guy in the shins - the player who got kicked was gathering the ball at the time - he wasn't injured at all - didn't need any treatment and was more annoyed than hurt. It was certainly a card but not a red card.
 

Donal1988


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:iraland:

Off topic but still I found it funny. There were 4 drop goal attempts today - obviously some young lads wanted to be the next Ronan O'Gara (only 1 was successful) :biggrin:
 

Davet

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How does someone who is watching where they are going knee an opponent in the face?

Glad the kick was a YC

But why do you think the onagers seemed to lose confidence in you?

PS refs with high potential always get asked the nastiest questions.
 

Donal1988


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The arriving Gold player was coming into a free area of the ruck, the Blue #4 was "safely" out of the way on the ground. He turned (and I'm glad he did or it would have been the back of his head that got hit) and stood trying to get out of the ruck. He moved his position.

However I let the ruck play out for too long. I knew it immediately. I could see what was going to happen but wasn't quick enough to the whistle.
 

Toby Warren


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Donal 1st one would have been a card. You say you couldn't properly justify it. The two Coaches almost had a fight over it - at least one of them could justify a card!


Words like I accept it wasn't deliberate your actions have lead to a serious injury - YC issued.
 

Donal1988


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Thats fair enough Toby I can see that alright. Would you say the same Davet?

It just seems wrong to me. Its like penalising someone for a clash of heads. I was 2m from the ruck and feel confident in saying that it was just an accident, borne out of the length of time the ruck carried on for, the position of the Blue tacklers on the deck and the excellent counter ruck by Blue.
 

Mike Selig


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I agree with Donal for no YC for the first incident. Would those advocating a YC also have YC'd McCaw for his knee to Para's head in the RWC final? Accidental clashes DO happen without anyone being at fault. As described, it sounds like the Blue player moved into the way of the arriving gold player more than anything.

A couple of ideas from me:
1) Looks like you're trying to learn from the experience which is the most important thing. Unplayable, quick whistle is your friend, it stops the guy trapped on the wrong side getting a bit of a trample, but be wary not to overuse it. If the ball keeps ending up unplayable at ruck-time you are probably missing things.
2) Any reason why someone saying "you can't effing referee" only gets a yellow? That is a straight red for me everytime.
 

Toby Warren


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Sometimes you need to 'manage it' - that really should be this sites logo! - if I read correctly this incident almost lead to an abandonment, a card may have help defuse this.

Also have you considered this - if 30 + people kick off - have you really seen an accident? Is it not at least reckless?

People don't normally fight over clear accidents.
 

Donal1988


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2) Any reason why someone saying "you can't effing referee" only gets a yellow? That is a straight red for me everytime.

My association have said this to me this evening - they suggested based on my report that a straight red instead of 2nd yellow would have been more appropriate.
 

Donal1988


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Also have you considered this - if 30 + people kick off - have you really seen an accident? Is it not at least reckless?

People don't normally fight over clear accidents.

There's two ways to look at it.

- 30+ people reacted to that incident

- One or two people reacted to the incident and the rest reacted to their reaction.
 

Toby Warren


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Agree Donal - I didn't see it and 100% believe your account, I am simply pointing out the difference in views and a little surprise that you didn't feel you could justify a card when you'd had a mass brawl and a near abandonment over the incident (and the players reactions to it or course).

As others say you will learn from this (and clearly you are actively seeking lesons from this)
 

Donal1988


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I'll tell you this though and I'd be interested to get peoples views. I've done 10 games this season. In my first 6 I had no cards, no issues of any kind and penalty scores of about 10-14 per game.

In my last 4 games I've had 3 Red Cards and another 5 yellow cards on top of that.

I don't know is it the fact that the honeymoon period at start of season over but I've notice a massive change. I suspect it could be this way until Christmas.
 

Donal1988


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Oh and I'm not dismissing your ideas at all Toby just teasing them out slightly.
 
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