Hidden Touch Judge

[Taffy]

This from today. Very competitive cup match. Under 16's.

Last minute. Penalty to red 30 metres out. Red losing 7 v 10.

Blue prop throws ball away. I push the penalty on ten metres. It is now kickable.

Just as the kicker runs up I look to see the touch judges (both young lads not at all keen to wave the flag) and shock horror there is no one behind the sticks. I decide in an split second that it is all on me then. Kick very, very close, one of those ones you would have ideally liked to have a replay of, but I decide it is good. Whistle to award and stick my hand up and the small touch judge who has been hidden behind one of the large centres now appears and keeps his flag down. Confusion reigns.

I decide an explanation is needed and call the captains over (Blue very agitated) and explain that I could not see the touch judge and I have decided it it is a good kick. And therefore the penalty stands. I think that actually I could have overruled him anyway (but I am not certain of this). Blue NOT HAPPY BUNNY. The match is over at a 10 v 10 draw and Red go through as an away team under the cup rules (which as an aside I think is a bit lame, but that's the rules! ).

Questions:

1. Was I right to stick by the penalty award or should I have made him kick again?

2. Was it a good idea to explain to the captains?

3. Anything else I should have done (note to self to ensure at least one touch judge behind on such a crucial kick!)

Sometime you just could not make it up.............

 

[OB..]

You are entitled to over-rule the TJs.

When you are told the player is going to kick for goal, signal to the TJs to get behind the posts. (But you are still entitled to make the final decision, whatever they think.)

 

[crossref]

You had an exciting game

So if I am understanding this right reds 10 points came from a penalty try and a penalty kick where you overruled a touch judge! And they were awarded a win from a drawn game.

I would like to read blue's match report

As you say, you probably would have been best off stopping clock and locating the TJ and getting them in position.


Did you speak to TJ : was his flag down a signal that he actually thought it missed , or did it mean he was in a terrible position behind the post and didn't see the ball

Law

6.A.6 Referee altering a decision
The referee may alter a decision when a touch judge has raised the flag to signal touch

Arguably that gave you discretion to change your opinion if you wanted to.

Was the TJ red or blue?

 

[ddjamo]

what did you see that the tj didn't see or vice versa?

 

[Taffy]

Yes, all reds points came from a penalty try and a penalty awarded where I overruled the touch judge (although by default as I hadn't seen him!).

The touch judge was red and said afterwards through his coach that he was frightened to put it up!

Perhaps Blue will now realise how it might have helped if their touch judge had been behind the sticks as well!

arghghghh!

 

[Taffy]

what did you see that the tj didn't see or vice versa?

It was one of those very close to the top of the sticks. I think I probably had a good view!

 

[crossref]

Actually, I can believe that the TJ saw that you had given the kick and thought 'phew, I don't need to give a decision now' and made no signal.


It just goes to show that we badly need a definite TJ signal for "It missed" (the low down swoop) , to enable the Ref, and everyone else to tell the difference between "it misssd" and "I have not been able to make a decision"

 

[FightOrFlight]

When the TJs are non branch appointed I am usually always a little on guard as I have seen some peaches when the flag stays down and the ball goes clean between the sticks(usually the oppo TJ).

If they are just kids or guys doing it because they are forced to they have no decision making power and it is your decision either way to give the score or not. I often over rule volunteer TJs or dont even look at them between the posts unless I have no idea at all.

 

[chbg]

And of course Blue did not blame their prop for causing the PK to be advanced 10m!

If you honestly thought that it was good then you are the only appointed official who has been given responsibility for equity etc etc. You are unbiased and right. Blue didn't want it to go over, and that would have clouded their perspective.

 

[TheBFG]

the other sides points 2 x tries or same as blue 1 x converted try and a PK?

 

[Taffy]

the other sides points 2 x tries or same as blue 1 x converted try and a PK?

Yep. Correct.