How should I manage this potential incident

[JDET]

Two Red players have broken Green defence and have a clear run to the try line, from the right wing the Green full back gets across to take out the Red ball carrier. However he goes in clumsley and appears to try to slide into the tackle and grasp the Red player to haul him down. Red off loads the ball (5-10mtrs from line) to his team mate who how has no defence anywhere near him and gets to score under the posts.

My question is this if the player had malicious in his tackle.Should I blow stop the game YC and award PT, or award the try and then deal with the offending player. with YC and PK to restart?.

 

[FlipFlop]

Two Red players have broken Green defence and have a clear run to the try line, from the right wing the Green full back gets across to take out the Red ball carrier. However he goes in clumsley and appears to try to slide into the tackle and grasp the Red player to haul him down. Red off loads the ball (5-10mtrs from line) to his team mate who how has no defence anywhere near him and gets to score under the posts.

My question is this if the player had malicious in his tackle.Should I blow stop the game YC and award PT, or award the try and then deal with the offending player. with YC and PK to restart?.

Firstly the last point. You can't restart with a PK. That is only for if the ball is dead when there is foul play. In this case it was not.

I suggest that if there is no need to blow (i.e. no flash point etc) then allow the try to be scored (always better to have a name rather than PT). Then deal with the foul play (warning or cards). Then the conversion, then a normal restart.

If you have a niggly game, then you can certainly blow immediately and award the PT (to stop retaliation) and then continue as above.

 

[Davet]

Agree with Flipflop

But is there actually foul play? Not certain from your description.

 

[Toby Warren]

You are taught (rightly so) that you should blow straight away for foul play. As you devlop as a ref, you will gauge the likely hood of a flash point.

In this case in a niggly game I would be tempted with a PT and YC -

In a 'calmer' game allow the try to be scored and deal with the offender (bollocking or YC if requried)

As FF rightly states no PK on half way.

 

[Toby Warren]

Agree with Flipflop

But is there actually foul play? Not certain from your description.

I read this as leading with the legs in a football style tackle then grabbing him.

 

[beckett50]

As Toby has said. It depends very much on the temper of the game - allied to the skill set of the players.

IMO 90% of the time it will be to award the try and issue a quiet rebuke to the tackler along the lines of ensuring he is more careful next time about leading with the legs etc. No need to make a great song and dance of it.

However, for those 10%, then blow immediately, issue bo**ocking with :noyc: and award PT

 

[Dickie E]

are we talking adults or children?

 

[Ian_Cook]

I have an issue with awarding a PT unless "but for the foul play" a try would have been scored.

It was scored anyway, and you cannot apply the part of the Law that relates to a try being scored in a better place because that only applies if the infringement was in-goal.

Law 22.4 (h)
Law 22.7 (b)

PTs are referenced in ten different Laws, but only in these two places does it mention anything about PT being awarded in a better position than a try.

If the infringement was malicious and/or dangerous, there is no reason why you cannot simply award the try and then call the player over and show him the card as well. You do not have to award a PK in order to show a card. Cards are management tools, not penalties in themselves.

 

[Dickie E]

I
PTs are referenced in ten different Laws, but only in these two places does it mention anything about PT being awarded in a better position than a try.

Hmmm. :chin:

Red is down by 6 points. Two Red players have broken Green defence and have a clear run to the try line, from the right wing the Green full back gets across to take out the Red ball carrier. However he goes in clumsley and appears to try to slide into the tackle and grasp the Red player to haul him down. Red off loads the ball (5-10mtrs from line) to his team mate who has the ability to score in the corner. Seeing the ref with arm out for advantage he intentionally runs the ball into touch-in-goal hoping for PT and easy kick. What is ref's call?

1. PT thereby awarding game to Red
2. PK to Red at place of infringement
3. 22 drop out as Foul Play did not prevent try from being scored and advantage is over.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Hmmm. :chin:

Red is down by 6 points. Two Red players have broken Green defence and have a clear run to the try line, from the right wing the Green full back gets across to take out the Red ball carrier. However he goes in clumsley and appears to try to slide into the tackle and grasp the Red player to haul him down. Red off loads the ball (5-10mtrs from line) to his team mate who has the ability to score in the corner. Seeing the ref with arm out for advantage he intentionally runs the ball into touch-in-goal hoping for PT and easy kick. What is ref's call?

1. PT thereby awarding game to Red
2. PK to Red at place of infringement
3. 22 drop out as Foul Play did not prevent try from being scored and advantage is over.

This sounds like a bird scenario. I'll manage it as I see it at the time!

The player is taking a big risk running it into touch because what if I only saw the foul play as a PK.

I am saying, that if a try IS scored, the Law doesn't allow you to change it to a PT unless the offence was committed in-goal. That is what the Law says.

However, there is nothing to prevent you blowing the whistle immediately and awarding the PT, but surely you would have to be thinking it was serious enough for a RC if you did that.

 

[ianh5979]

Surely under the scenario being presented the player (who is now all alone) would score the try under the posts anyway!

 

[Toby Warren]

However, there is nothing to prevent you blowing the whistle immediately and awarding the PT, but surely you would have to be thinking it was serious enough for a RC if you did that.

Or It was a hot tempered game and this was a flash point
Or if you are just starting out and you follow the advice given by the trainers

But as stated earlier most times you let the try stand.

 

[FlipFlop]

Hmmm. :chin:

Red is down by 6 points. Two Red players have broken Green defence and have a clear run to the try line, from the right wing the Green full back gets across to take out the Red ball carrier. However he goes in clumsley and appears to try to slide into the tackle and grasp the Red player to haul him down. Red off loads the ball (5-10mtrs from line) to his team mate who has the ability to score in the corner. Seeing the ref with arm out for advantage he intentionally runs the ball into touch-in-goal hoping for PT and easy kick. What is ref's call?

1. PT thereby awarding game to Red
2. PK to Red at place of infringement
3. 22 drop out as Foul Play did not prevent try from being scored and advantage is over.

which is why you call "Advantage over" as the player crosses the line with a clear try scoring opportunity!

Then if he is stupid, you go to the 22m DO. You can still card the player for the foul play earlier (for which you played advantage). Advantage does not negate stupidity.

 

[Ian_Cook]

But just to get back to JDET's OP

There is no reason why he could not let the try stand and then go back and card the offender. Its a scenario I have seen a few times at elite level and IMO its good management.

 

[Toby Warren]

But just to get back to JDET's OP

There is no reason why he could not let the try stand and then go back and card the offender. Its a scenario I have seen a few times at elite level and IMO its good management.

Ian we all agree - once you have a bit of experaince this is the right response. But when you start out you are told to blow foul play straight away to stop a flash point. THis is good advice for newbies but exp. allows you to use your judgement and follow teh path you advocate

 

[Davet]

As Ian says.

If you blow the whistle immediately for the foul play then the try has been prevented, so awarding a PT is available to you. You cannot do so if you play advanatge and the try was scored anyway - it's not the foul play that prevented the score under the posts it's the other circumstances.

If we are talking about children then don't play advantage for foul play. And in this case you would award the PT immediately. Whistle, hand up in signal and while facing the players walk/jog backwards under the posts. This lets everybody know the try is given and should stop any retaliation - if something kicks off you can see it and deal with it. Having awarded the PT you can dish out any cards, and even, following conversion - re-start with a PK at half-way in response to any "afters". (ONLY if there were "afters" - this doesn't apply if there was no offence after the whistle fpr the PT had gone)

If we are talking about adults then it must depend on what exactly happened and what the temper of the game is. My preference, in a normal game for a non RC offence, especially with a try on the cards, would be to play the advantage.

I appreciate that convoluted arguements can be made to say that the original foul play offence forced the player to pass, and maybe his team-mate was not in such a good position, and the cover reached him, preventing the try - which would 90% have happened if the original offender had been "beamed up" (since he chose to offend his presence is normally discounted) and the original ball carrier this made his way unimpeded to the line.

This is probably where experience and judgement come in, and why new refs would be advised to simply blow quickly and award the PT immediately;

 

[djones]

you have to decide the temper of the game and then decide in what order you deal with things:

If there have been no incidents in the match then award the try after which deal with the offending player, followed by the conversion.

If there have been multiple incidents and a "punch-up" is likely to occur blow straight away, bin the player then run under the sticks PT.

 

[Davet]

If there have been multiple incidents and a "punch-up" is likely to occur blow straight away, bin the player then run under the sticks PT.

I would agree with dealing with cards first IF there has been a very niggly match, and it looks likely to kick off.

In a normal game you can award the PT first, (keep facing the situation as you go under the sticks) which gives you a little thinking time, and that action in itself may well calm down any retribution. Using your voice as well is good practice - <PEEEEP>"Penalty Try, gents. Stay there Green 15, Green Captain as well please. Everyone else go away!"

After thinking you may decide to YC the player or simply serious talking to. But it's then a considered decision, not simply a reaction.

IF you can make time for yourself to think then I suggest that you should do so.

 

[JDET]

I was unlucky (or lucky) in getting a local derby as one of my first senior games. The game was a bit fractious but both teams had good Captains which helped. I did let the try stand, but was asked by the red captain if it was a YC offence. I explained that they got the try and and from my view point the tackle was clumsey and no ill intention was intended.
However it did raise the question what should I of done, if it was carried out with malicious intent.

 

[SimonSmith]

I think intent can be a dangerous path to walk TOO far down - and in fact when it comes to dangerous tackles the Law Lords have been quite specific that we judge on outcome and not intent.

If he slides in breaks the guy's ankle, how much do you - or the injured player - care about intent? And in all seriousness, how do you judge intent? Have we all suddenly developed the ability to see into men's souls?

I know that there are situations where it's clear that something 'went wrong' - tackler being wrong footed, for example. But unless I can clearly see that there was an absence of malice, then I assume the worst.

If I read your scenario right, sliding tackle in the mode of a old fashioned Left Back cleaning out the tricky little right wing? And carried out with intent? Offski. As happened when I refereed ODU at UMW. If the cards need to come out, get them out!