In Touch or Not?

[RussRef]

I know there are older threads on this, but I'm interested in how you would call this:

Blue kicks ahead toward touchline. Ball passes the plane into touch on the full. Before it lands, Red 15 -- standing with both feet in FOP -- leaps toward touchline and, while still airborne, bats ball backward. Red 15 then lands (i.e., first body part touches the ground) in touch. Kick reached touch or not?

I have struggled with this for several years and am frustrated that the LOG do not address this fairly common scenario. IMO, there are two reasonable interpretations: a) ball is in touch if Red 15 first landed in touch OR b) ball is in touch if most/majority of Red 15's body was in touch, though airborne, at time he batted the ball backward. The first seems clearer and easier to call. If you favor the latter, how do you decide how much of Red 15's body has to be over the touchline at the time he bats the ball?

 

[Taff]

Doesn't it depend where the feet are?

Didn't OB have some guidance on this a few weeks ago?

 

[itin]

Unless I have it wrong.
Both feet start on field, contact with ball in field, feet land in touch: play on.
Both feet start on field, contact with ball beyond touch line, feet land in touch: lineout.

 

[RussRef]

The LOG don't talk about a player's feet in this scenario, but I guess you could take the view that the feet determine whether the player is in touch or not -- and if the feet never left the FOP, the player was never in touch, therefore play on unless the feet land in touch.

But consider if Red 15 goes almost horizontal to bat the ball backward, and everything but his feet are over the touchline. After he plays the ball, his torso and arms hit the ground in touch with his feet in the air (but over FOP). You play on?

 

[OB..]

Doesn't it depend where the feet are?

Didn't OB have some guidance on this a few weeks ago?

Yes. A panel AR and a panel AR coach at a society training session said the current directive is that what matters is where the player's feet are at the moment he first plays the ball. If they have crossed the plane of touch, he is in touch; otherwise, he isn't.

 

[Chris_j]

That is all ok with impartial ARs In real life, with partisan TJs, if the ball has crossed the line and the player lands in touch that is lineout for me. Clear, obvious and sellable in the bar later.

 

[OB..]

[...] and sellable in the bar later.

I find the people in the bar often have rather peculiar ideas, often made up on the spot to justify their own team.

Cynical? Me?!

 

[The Fat]

I know there are older threads on this, but I'm interested in how you would call this:

Blue kicks ahead toward touchline. Ball passes the plane into touch on the full. Before it lands, Red 15 -- standing with both feet in FOP -- leaps toward touchline and, while still airborne, bats ball backward. Red 15 then lands (i.e., first body part touches the ground) in touch. Kick reached touch or not?

I have struggled with this for several years and am frustrated that the LOG do not address this fairly common scenario. IMO, there are two reasonable interpretations: a) ball is in touch if Red 15 first landed in touch OR b) ball is in touch if most/majority of Red 15's body was in touch, though airborne, at time he batted the ball backward. The first seems clearer and easier to call. If you favor the latter, how do you decide how much of Red 15's body has to be over the touchline at the time he bats the ball?

It depends if his body (torso) was also past the plane of touch.
If he jumped from the FOP, crossed the touch line and batted back a ball that had also crossed the plane of touch and then (obviously) landed in touch, the ball is out, put there by the kicker.

If he jumped from the FOP and before his body crossed the plane of touch batted back a ball that had crossed the plane of touch and then landed in touch, the ball is not out and is play on.

These two scenarios from Line Ball Your Call.


(1) Red player punts the ball from outside his own 22m area and the ball crosses the
touch-line on the full. An opponent standing in the field-of-play leaps in the air and
before he crosses the touch-line slaps the ball back into the field of play. He then
lands in touch.
(a) Is the ball in touch? NO
Note:The determining factor in whether the ball is in touch is not whether the player
was in the air or where he lands. It is simply whether the body was beyond the
touch-line when the contact was made.

(2)Red player punts the ball from outside his own 22m area and the ball crosses the
touch-line on the full. A blue opponent standing in the field-of-play leaps in the air
and after he crosses the touch-line slaps the ball back into the field of play.
(a) Is the ball in touch? YES
(b) Where is the line-out? The line-of-touch is where
the red player kicked the ball
(c) Team to throw in Blue

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

If the ball has crossed the plane for me the player has to stay or land in the field of play. Distinctions between torso and feet are irrelevant. I stick to this and you can sell it to anyone before during or after the game simple

 

[OB..]

If the ball has crossed the plane for me the player has to stay or land in the field of play. Distinctions between torso and feet are irrelevant. I stick to this and you can sell it to anyone before during or after the game simple

Selling your method of deciding to uncomprehending spectators is not really the touchstone. Can you persuade your assessor?

Wouldn't it be nice to have a consistent approach throughout the game?

 

[Bunniksider]

If the ball has crossed the plane for me the player has to stay or land in the field of play. Distinctions between torso and feet are irrelevant. I stick to this and you can sell it to anyone before during or after the game simple

Me too

 

[OB..]

If the ball has crossed the plane for me the player has to stay or land in the field of play.

If a player starts in touch, jumps to catch the ball after it has crossed the plane, and lands in the field of play, do you call "Play on"?

 

[ChrisR]

I have three criteria for judging this kind of touchline scenario:
a. If it is covered unambiguously in Law then apply Law.
b. When possible rely on data that can be determined by the referee (most often not on the touchline) without the input of TJs.
c. When possible reward the skill of the player to keep the ball in play.

This means I’d use a players point of take-off or landing rather than any mid-air body position or ball location. I also think you can get straight answers from the TJ to “Did he take off from the field-of-play?” and “Did he land in the field-of-play?”.

There are four possible scenarios when players catch and pass, or bat back, the ball when in the air.
1. Takes off and lands in the field-of-play. Play on.
2. Takes off from in touch but lands in the field-of-play. Play on.
3. Takes off from the field-of-play and lands in touch but plays the ball back into the field -of-play before landing. Play on.
4. Takes off from in touch and lands in touch.
4a. Ball has crossed the plane-of-touch. In touch put there by kicker.
4b. Ball in field-of-play batted by player in touch. Play on.

Scenario 4 covered by Law 19 definitions.

So my call on the OP is "Play on!"

 

[leaguerefaus]

Union needs to either simplify the touch laws, or allow the referee to decide touch by a flip of a coin. Simples.

 

[MrQeu]

I'd say go with a basketball-like approach on saving the ball from touch but not for scoring a try:

The last portion of grass the player touched determines his status in mid-air. He jumped from inside the FOP. Play on. He was foot-in-touch, then he was in touch all along.

Much more simple I'd say.

 

[leaguerefaus]

I'd say go with a basketball-like approach on saving the ball from touch but not for scoring a try:

The last portion of grass the player touched determines his status in mid-air. He jumped from inside the FOP. Play on. He was foot-in-touch, then he was in touch all along.

Much more simple I'd say.

That's the RL style

 

[The umpire]

My view, right or wrong, is to keep it simple.
Is the ball over the touchline and is it held by someone whose feet are on the ground inside the touchline? Yes = it's not in touch, No = it's in touch.
Is the ball inside the touchline and is it held by someone whose feet (or one foot) is on the ground on or outside the line? Yes = in touch.
Jumping makes no difference.

 

[Dickie E]

Recurring theme here:

1. everyone wants to make it simple,
2. everyone does it differently.

:holysheep:

Note: quoting an animated meerkat from an insurance ad does not make your point of view incontrovertibly correct

 

[ChrisR]

No, but it's a second opinion.

 

[ChrisR]

My view, right or wrong, is to keep it simple.
Is the ball over the touchline and is it held by someone whose feet are on the ground inside the touchline? Yes = it's not in touch, No = it's in touch.
Is the ball inside the touchline and is it held by someone whose feet (or one foot) is on the ground on or outside the line? Yes = in touch.
Jumping makes no difference.

Umpire, you are not addressing the issue at all. Jumping makes all the difference.