IRB U 20 Championship .. NZ v Fiji ..red cards

[Lex Hipkins]

Interested in people's thoughts on these ...

1st red for the pick up and drop (spear?) seems unequivocal

but not so sure about the second ..would yellow have sufficed?

http://youtu.be/zIrRpi-Zqro

 

[FlipFlop]

Maybe yellow, but he had already given 2 (or was it 3) yellows by that point. If he's already given 1 or a high tackle, then the second is red. It was a full on swinging arm to the throat. In my mind very dangerous, and needs to be removed from the game.

No problem with it being a red. But can see why some would give a yellow if isolated incident.

- - - Updated - - -

The first red is more my wonder.

He lifts the player. The player then twists (weight of player) - but the tackler doesn't. But the tackler does then seem to take the tackled player to ground (drive? maybe?).

Yes I know the memo is red for that, just seems very soft, and not 100% sure it really meets the criteria.

2 reds and 3 yellows, and playing with 11 players, not a great game for the players or the ref. Can't believe he couldn't have managed that better!

 

[OB..]

He lifts the player.

Moral: don't lift.

 

[matty1194]

2 reds and 3 yellows, and playing with 11 players, not a great game for the players or the ref. Can't believe he couldn't have managed that better!

Im sorry Flipflop, im going to have to disagree with your point in bold, we have all at some time in our own refereeing careers been involved in games with team/players that either dont want to play or cant adjust after repeated warnings and infringements, and knowing the ref who is a good bloke who rarely gets flustered and is very calm in his officiating i would expect him to have called fair all game which he did, consitent.

And at the end of the day, it is his job on the line, if he hadnt followed the well publicised IRB directives on the "lifted" tackle he would of been slaughtered on his after match debrief.

Some of the comments on the Youtube clip are immature bordering on the idiotic.

 

[Ian_Cook]

First red.

Can't see why there is debate. Static lift, flip and drive... straight red; all day long.

Moral: don't lift.

Exactly.

Why doesn't the iRB just make it illegal to lift an opponent off the the ground by gripping him below the waist? That way a crash tackle would be a legal way to take the player off his feet in a way that minimises the risk of flipping him over.

Tackling a player in the air is illegal, so why is tackling a player into the air not.

Second red

The posted video does not show it very well, but I have seen the full replay. This tackle was very, very dangerous; a swinging arm delivered front on to the throat of a running player. IMO Red is acceptable even as an isolated tackle, but after warnings about high tackles, it is certainly a straight red.

2 reds and 3 yellows, and playing with 11 players, not a great game for the players or the ref. Can't believe he couldn't have managed that better!

I don't know that you can blame the ref at all for any of this. He warned them about dangerous tackling. If the players ignore the warning, the referee is left with little option but to show cards, otherwise the warnings become empty threats.

 

[Andrew1974]

Why doesn't the iRB just make it illegal to lift an opponent off the the ground by gripping him below the waist?

Might not be specifically listed but in the past I have blown straight away and award a penalty under 10.4e, in my view it is plainly dangerous, so I've pinged it...never had any complaints about that decision. Not sure it is necessarily correct by the letter of the law though. Thoughts?

 

[damo]

I've only seen the highlights on youtube, but it seems to me the first red is standard and the second one could go either way, but if there had been a few other high tackles during the game then it is probably correct.

If there were 2 red cards and 3 yellows I would put all of the blame on the players and none of it on the referee.

 

[TNT88]

That ref seemed to handle it all well on the highlights. Extremely clear and calm with those decisions and he was in a good position for all of them. I expected fights to break out after the tackles, but blowing the whistle quickly and his general calm manor probably helped prevent that.

 

[FlipFlop]

I've had a game with 4 red and 7 yellows. Yes the players didn't listen. But still, I think I could have managed it better.

Could I have prevented some of it? Could I have carded earlier, could I have been harsher earlier, coul dI have calmed it down in some way?

You guys can disagree all you want, but I fully believe that 2 reds and 3 yellows in an U21 International between 2 experienced countries - the ref isn't coming out of it smelling of roses. I'm not saying the cards weren't deserved, but something must have gone wrong somewhere, and the players and the TO3 all take their share of the blame. Interesting was that the ref was booed off the field at the end by the crowd. In our game this is unheard of, so the crowd clearly didn't follow the ref, perhaps the teams didn't understand the ref, so got frustrated?

I'm not saying the ref high tackled anyone, or made them tip tackle anyone, but did he cause players to get frustrated? Did he fail to spot the signs earlier enough? I haven't seen enough of the game, but suspect there were some issues there.

But I take your point - there is a possibility that it was just the players.

(Regarding the red for the tip - I agree. My main point (badly made) was that I think the 2nd red for teh high tackle was far more dangerous, but that is the one people think is harsh. Personally I think that the first red is the weaker red, and wouldn't have complained if it was yellow (but understand red))

 

[damo]

Alright, I will try and get hold of a copy of the game and have a look. Might be something worth looking at anyway, generally there is an All Black or two that come out of each U20 team each year.

 

[Account Deleted]

Two clear as day Red cards. no ifs or buts for me. We must eradicate the "tip" and the throat "tackles". DANGEROUS every day. Good work by the referee.

Now how did the referee handle it?

Looking at the players reaction to both incidents I think he handled it very well. both sides were calm and the calls were pretty well accepted by Fiji. NZ looked to calmly get on with the game. So for me the ref gets good marks.

So who was at fault?

For the tip? In part poor coaching. The players too. WHY are players making these tackles? They know they are illegal but they are still happening. It's being coached and you have to ask why. Also WE are negligent as a body! When the IRB ruled on the "Spear" etc just before the RWC we had a spate of refs ignore the directive. The one ref (AR) who did not was pilloried for it. Dave Pearson? Well after Bradley Davies' "assault" on the poor Irish player in the 6N, Pearson virtually read the description of the statutory red word for word . It was like he was reading from a card yet he then astonishingly said YELLOW. If we don't act; players, coaches and spectators will come to the conclusion that "it's OK". So, as a body, refs are culpable. Then there's the IRB. The bans handed out generally are a joke. It's like handing out ASBOs to bank robbers. WE ALL need to step up on this one.

The High tackles? Well I'm sorry if I upset here, but it is a PI thing. The high, the armless and the down right dangerous "BIG HIT" is loved across the islands. We are told time and time again; "it's part of their culture". Well it's not part of our game. If they can not / will not understand that then we need to see more REDS to get through to their brains.

And yes I do know that high tackles etc occur in all countries but the PIs pride themselves on them. They seem to genuinely not understand that what they are doing is illegal. We need to keep banging it into their heads and if that takes a flurry of red cards so be it.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Alright, I will try and get hold of a copy of the game and have a look. Might be something worth looking at anyway, generally there is an All Black or two that come out of each U20 team each year.

Full replay available here

http://www.irb.com/jwc/video/index.html

Click on the green "next" button until you see

JWC 2013: New Zealand v Fiji Full Match Replay


You may need to download and install the Microsoft Silverlight plugin

 

[Toby Warren]

Both text book reds - but I can understand the 'games gone soft' reaction a little. Don't think ithas it's justed matured and has appreciated the dangers.

Can't fault the calls.

If I reffed a game that had a team down to 11 players - I would certainly be taking a long hard look at my performance to see if (and I stress if) there was anything that could have done to avoid that.

 

[damo]

Full replay available here

http://www.irb.com/jwc/video/index.html

Click on the green "next" button until you see

JWC 2013: New Zealand v Fiji Full Match Replay


You may need to download and install the Microsoft Silverlight plugin

Thanks Ian - I have other sources, but next time I will use that one.

 

[Daftmedic]

I would think the ref will review the game, if I was able to get done of mine recorded I would as well.
In my most humblest of opinions it's the player who lifts responsibility to place the lifted player down in a safe manner.
Going over the vid there seems to be no malice involved in both reds in fact the second the Fijian player covered the tackled player to protect him and see if he is ok.

 

[damo]

I thought of the 5 cards there was only 1 that I would argue with, which was the swinging arm report that came from the AR report.


1st Red is standard, everyone should know by now that if you pick someone up and then drive them into the ground you are gone. If the tackle went even slightly wrong he could have landed on his head.


1st Yellow is fair enough given that he told the captain that he had twice observed players trying to kick the ball out of the halfbacks hands, and that he would not permit it. If you insist on trying to do it again you can sit down for 10 minutes and think about how silly you are.


2nd Yellow looked very harsh. I didn't think it was even a penalty, but to be fair it was on recommendation from the AR


3rd Yellow was spot on. You can't shoulder someone off the ball once they have made a kick.


2nd Red was either a red or a yellow, and given the number of warnings and cards given I absolutely agree with it being a red. If you only watch the highlights on Youtube you won't see the best angle, which shows that it was a pretty vicious tackle that hit him on the neck.


All in all, I thought the ref had a pretty good game, a bit verbose at times and he pinged the wrong team at the breakdown a few times but he was right a lot more than he was wrong. He was also let down badly by his AR on one occasion when he ruled the ball had come out of the tunnel. I do think he could have been a bit shorter and sharper with his descriptions during play - particularly when I suspect one of the teams would have trouble catching the accent.


The commentators whinging about the ref on the other hand ... was as disgraceful as it was predictable.

 

[B52 REF]

dismal fail by bigred (if he was going for keano's wrwc record of 9 cards in a match) (; but good game - always tricky reffing fiji youngguns