kick to touch

[Skids]

I can't clarify the law regarding this, please help: White kick to touch from their own 22, but since the ball lands off the field of play, white forwards (who are upfield) do not retire 10m. Blue take quick throw in but have to keep the ball tight as white forwards are midfield denying any across field long passing into space. Are white forwards offside under the 10m rule, or can they hold their ground (or indeed, advance) as the ball went into touch? It seems that by not retiring, they had an unfair influence over blue's freedom to play the ball wide. :chin:

Thanks in advance, apols if this is a dumb question but it's a Sunday, I've been watching rugby all day and I've had a few beers! :biggrin:

 

[OB..]

Before the ball goes into touch, the players are in an offside position. If they are not complying with any requirements of the offside law, in particular the 10m law, then they can be penalised.

Law 11.9 A player who remains in an offside position is loitering. A loiterer who prevents the opposition from playing the ball as they wish is taking part in the game, and is penalised. The referee makes sure that the loiterer does not benefit from being put onside by the opposing team's action.

There is an argument that all offsides are cancelled when the ball becomes dead, but that argument certainly cannot wipe out earlier offside offences.

You have to be realistic - once a quick throw-in is no longer possible (or realistic) then players do not need to go though a purely academic exercise for putting team-mates onside.

 

[Skids]

Thanks, that felt like the right answer to me but I wasn't sure.

So, even though the game restarts almost instantly, IF an offside player had been retiring but stopped doing so when the ball went out, he is now free to affect the game? I just saw this happen in the 45th minute of the Bath vs Biarritz game and wondered as a Biarritz forward, having retired initially (about 2m) but stopped as the ball went out, seemed to prevent the ball going wide from the quick throw in by his mere presence. Seems a little unfair, but if the offside ceases as the ball goes out, I guess he's legal.

 

[PaulDG]

Seems a little unfair, but if the offside ceases as the ball goes out, I guess he's legal.

This is something that we haven't had the views of the Law Lords on.

Before the "throwing backwards" law change for quick throws, they were pretty rare and while the point of law was the same, it hardly ever happened, so it wasn't given any thought.

Now though..

The ball goes into touch.. The forwards who were offside at the time of the kick will now move to where the line out will be - everyone knows that's what they do, it's all "expected". No one thinks they can't go to the line of touch before being put onside.

And then the opposition take a QT - what's the status of those forwards?

OB says they are still offside. Maybe he's right, but forwards retiring away from the line of touch in order to put themselves onside before attempting to form a line out just isn't right, is it? The could even get pinged for failing to form the line out if they all suddenly started going the wrong way...

 

[Taff]

... Seems a little unfair, but if the offside ceases as the ball goes out, I guess he's legal.

Sorry, but where does it say that offside ceases when the ball goes dead?

11.1 OFFSIDE IN GENERAL PLAY
(a) A player who is in an offside position is liable to sanction only if the player does one of three things:
• Interferes with play or,
• Moves forward, towards the ball or
• Fails to comply with the 10-Metre Law (Law 11.4).
(b) Offside and interfering with play. A player who is offside must not take part in the game. This means the player must not play the ball or obstruct an opponent.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

Sorry, but where does it say that offside ceases when the ball goes dead?

We have argued this several times, and I have been on your side. But to answer your question " Sorry, but where does it say that offside ceases when the ball goes dead? " In the Heading below


11.1 OFFSIDE IN GENERAL PLAY

 

[OB..]

I don't think the point is covered in the laws. We are reduced to trying to infer something from laws that were not written with this point in mind. It needs sorting out.

 

[menace]

Before the ball goes into touch, the players are in an offside position. If they are not complying with any requirements of the offside law, in particular the 10m law, then they can be penalised.

For this exact reason we were advised in this part of the colony by our now retired int'l/s14 "top gun" ref to make the offside call as soon as it they infringe (ie as soon as they move forward or do not stop when you say so) and issue the PK BEFORE the ball goes into touch. (as once the ball is in touch to then whistle the PK makes you look a bit ordinary).

I thought it was good advice and seemed reasonable to me because you're not really watching the ball in flight are you? ie check the kicker is not taken out late (safety!), then check for players in front of kicker...then check where that oval thingy went! So make that assessment then pk if need be.

 

[PaulDG]

For this exact reason we were advised in this part of the colony by our now retired int'l/s14 "top gun" ref to make the offside call as soon as it they infringe (ie as soon as they move forward or do not stop when you say so) and issue the PK BEFORE the ball goes into touch. (as once the ball is in touch to then whistle the PK makes you look a bit ordinary).

But what if they're complying?

White kick ahead. White's forwards are ahead of the kicker and are retiring.

No offence.

Ball goes into touch. You blow the whistle.

White's forwards now run to the line of touch.

Blue take a QT or attempt to take one but change their minds as the "offside" white forwards are between them and their [blue's] goal line.

Are white onside?

 

[menace]

Good point! Personally I would say they complied with offside laws and ball went dead so white not offside at QT. But happy to be corrected by those much more experienced than me!

 

[Davet]

If they are offside under the 10m Law, or indeed ahead of the kicker but not within 10m then they must - immediately - retire under 10m Law, or at least stand still under General Play.

If they don't they are liable to panalty, and can be penalsied as such - no advantage accruing since the ball then went dead following their offence.

An early, and LOUD, call while the ball is in flight will help your case no end.

Once the ball is in touch it is dead - General Play has ended, so the provisions of offside under General Play have expired - and indeed they are under an obligation not to delay the formation of a lineout, so would be expected to move towards line of touch.

If you have not given a penalty, because those closest retired and the others stood still, then once the ball is in touch and they start to move forwards to form the lineout then if the opposition choose to take a quick throw they do so voluntarily and at their own risk.

 

[OB..]

In practical terms I agree with Davet.

If the players don't comply with your shouts (or even off their own bat ) then you are playing advantage.

 

[OB..]

Form the SArefs site

3. Name: Lance Hayward

Question: Can a player be offside at a quick throw in? In other words Team A is tackled into touch. Team B picks up the ball and takes quick throw backwards. Team A player tackles receiver of quick throw?

Thanks, Lance

Craig Joubert: Hi Lance,

Since the ball is dead once it goes into touch, a player cannot be offside when a quick throw in is taken.

Cheers, Craig

Of course this does not mean he was not offside (and penalisable) before the QT, but it does mean he can otherwise go where he wants once the ball is in touch.