Knock On into Ingoal

pwhaling


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I had a scenario in a game the other day and was looking for feedback.

Blue knocks on into red's ingoal. Red touches it down. Would it be fair/appropriate to give red the option of scrum or 22 drop?

If they have a weak scrum, or don't want a 5 metre scrum, a 22 drop could be considered advantage gained.

Ideas.
 

Not Kurt Weaver


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Right away without looking it up. Advantage cannot be gained when ball is dead.
 

OB..


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Law 12.1 (c)[LAWS]Knock-on or throw forward into the in-goal. If an attacking player knocks-on or throws-forward in the field of play and the ball goes into the opponents’ in-goal and it is made dead there, a scrum is awarded where the knock-on or throw forward happened.[/LAWS]
 

Not Kurt Weaver


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8.3 (f) After the ball has been made dead. Advantage cannot be played after the ball has been made dead.

Found what I thinking
 

Taff


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... Blue knocks on into red's ingoal. Red touches it down. Would it be fair/appropriate to give red the option of scrum or 22 drop?
Funnily enough I was thinking about this the other day, when thinking about the new LO / Scrum option if the ball is knocked-on into touch.

If there's an option if the ball is knocked-on over the touchline, I can't see why the lawbook doesn't allow an option if the ball is knocked-on over the try line. Just seems inconsistent to me.
 
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OB..


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If there's an option if the ball is knocked-on over the touchline, I can't see why the lawbook doesn't allow an option if the ball is knocked-on over the try line. Just seems inconsistent to me.
At one time the knock-on into in-goal would have given the defence a 22 drop out, but the law was changed because that was thought to give too big an advantage to the defenders, and it was inconsistent with what happened elsewhere for a knock-on.

The knock-on into touch is different in that it confers no such major benefit.
 

Womble

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So knock on in the field of play goes touch in goal. Lineout option out 5?
 

Womble

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Touch in goal never results in a L/O
But under the LAT it could maybe, OB will have the answer!

knock on into touch a team may take the lineout or the scrum, or do we say that touch ingoal is not touch?
 
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pwhaling


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At one time the knock-on into in-goal would have given the defence a 22 drop out, but the law was changed because that was thought to give too big an advantage to the defenders, and it was inconsistent with what happened elsewhere for a knock-on.

The knock-on into touch is different in that it confers no such major benefit.

Thanks, that was a perspective I never thought of. I've always given the scrum, but it never sat quite right. Now it does.
 

Womble

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But under the LAT it could maybe, OB will have the answer!

knock on into touch a team may take the lineout or the scrum, or do we say that touch ingoal is not touch?

Thinking about it touch ingoal has the same laws as the dead ball line so logic tells me that a scrum is the only option... touch ingoal is just a dead ball line with a different name!
 

OB..


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Touch-in-goal is certainly not the same as Touch, and Law 22.8 equates it to the dead ball line.
 

Ciaran Trainor


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Scrum is the only legal option however if defending team is getting hammered and it's late in the second half give the 22 and be damned. I've done it many times in this situation and nobody has complained. Wouldn't do it in a league match though.
 

OB..


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Scrum is the only legal option however if defending team is getting hammered and it's late in the second half give the 22 and be damned. I've done it many times in this situation and nobody has complained. Wouldn't do it in a league match though.
Not really a good idea because players will get the idea that the decision is correct and feel aggrieved when another referee does it properly..
 

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"Too much" is an absurd concept.


Knock on 5 mtrs out by the attacking side. Defender picks the ball up and kicks the ball down field. Winger follows up and scores under the posts. Too much advantage? Nonsense, people would laugh at us.

Advantage, in effect, temporarily removes the offence. The attacking side has put the ball into in goal. it is fair and legal to minor for the 22drop out. Why it should be different after a KO is plain daft.

But the law is the law so 5mtr scrum it is.
 

Davet

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Knock on 5 mtrs out by the attacking side. Defender picks the ball up and kicks the ball down field. Winger follows up and scores under the posts. Too much advantage? Nonsense, people would laugh at us. ..... But the law is the law so 5mtr scrum it is.

But that isn't the Law.

The ball was knocked on into in-goal, but was NOT made dead there- in your scenario is was picked up and kicked... so advantage is fine.

It's only a 5m scrum if no advantage accrues - OR - the ball is made dead in-goal after being knocked on into in-goal.
 

OB..


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"Too much" is an absurd concept.


Knock on 5 mtrs out by the attacking side. Defender picks the ball up and kicks the ball down field. Winger follows up and scores under the posts. Too much advantage? Nonsense, people would laugh at us.

Advantage, in effect, temporarily removes the offence. The attacking side has put the ball into in goal. it is fair and legal to minor for the 22drop out. Why it should be different after a KO is plain daft.

But the law is the law so 5mtr scrum it is.
The significant difference is that in your example the advantage is gained by playing good rugby. In the case of the knock-on it would be given to the team by a quirk of the laws rather than any skilful play. The lawmakers felt it was anomalous. I agree.
 

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But that isn't the Law...

If you read carefully I pointed out what the law is thanks. Just in case you missed it:


All The Time Ref said:
But the law is the law so 5mtr scrum it is.




I feel the law is an ass in this case. I do, however, accept the law as written and I apply it accordingly. I just don't agree with it.


8.1 ADVANTAGE IN PRACTICE (RE-WRITE)

(d) Tactical advantage means freedom for the non-offending team to play the ball as they wish (but not in the case of a knock on into in goal).

Surely Minoring the ball and gaining 22 mtrs is playing "the ball as they wish" gaining a tactical (and territorial advantage).
 
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