Man on the floor with ball

[wolfie]

Another one from this Saturday.

Blue #7 with the ball runs into a couple of Red players and Blue #7 falls to the ground with the ball, but not tackled. He rolls/ crawls around a bit releases but blocks the other players from getting the ball by being on the floor. I blow and award PK against Blue #7 for playing the ball on the floor. He say's "I wasn't held, whats wrong." I say "If you are on the floor you can't play the ball" - not adxactly right as per the law I know.

My approach has been that if you are on the floor you can't interfere with those that are on there feet trying to play the ball.

Gents - your thoughts please?

Wolfie

 

[Jacko]

He has to either get to his feet, pass the ball, place the ball or release the ball. Give him a little leeway if there is noone on their feet challenging for possession, but if they are then it must be immediate. "Man on his feet is king"...

 

[Cymro]

Sounds like a sensible call, as Jacko says those players on their feet are king. Interestingly the "not held" plea is a common one, as I recall a player doesn't have to be "held" he just has to be "brought to ground" and that means at least one knee has to touch the ground. I assume this then means he can't get up and keep running with the ball he has to "play" it.
Thoughts ?

T

 

[Dickie E]

Sounds like a sensible call, as Jacko says those players on their feet are king. Interestingly the "not held" plea is a common one, as I recall a player doesn't have to be "held" he just has to be "brought to ground" and that means at least one knee has to touch the ground. I assume this then means he can't get up and keep running with the ball he has to "play" it.
Thoughts ?

T

Disagree.
Law 15 requires a player to be held for a tackle to occur and Law 14.1 allows him to get up with the ball if no tackle occurs.

 

[AndyKidd]

Law 14 Ball on the Ground - No Tackle

DEFINITION
This situation occurs when the ball is available on the ground and a
player goes to ground to gather the ball, except immediately after a
scrum or a ruck.
It also occurs when a player is on the ground in possession of the ball
and has not been tackled.
The game is to be played by players who are on their feet. A player
must not make the ball unplayable by falling down. Unplayable
means that the ball is not immediately available to either team so that
play may continue.
A player who makes the ball unplayable, or who obstructs the
opposing team by falling down, is negating the purpose and spirit of
the game and must be penalised.
A player who is not tackled, but who goes to ground while holding the
ball, or a player who goes to ground and gathers the ball, must act
immediately.

THis clearly covers wolfies actions.

14.2 WHAT THE PLAYER MUST NOT DO
(a) Lying on or around the ball. A player must not lie on, over,
or near the ball to prevent opponents getting possession of it.​

Penalty: Penalty Kick.

Dickie is right regarding no tackle occuring if not held, but Wolfies senario has the player "rolls/crawls around the floor" A player brought to ground but not held has the same options as a tackled player i.e. pass place or release the ball. added to these options are the ability to get up with the ball but first and foremost is that the ball must remain playable. Wolfie decided that the players actions took away any ability for the ball to be played and I believe his call was correct.

 

[wolfie]

Dickie

I disagree with you, 14.1 says the a player on the ground with no tackle must get up, release or pass the ball but nothing about him getting up with the ball if no tackle occurs.

As Jacko said give him some discression if there is no oppposition around but if they are then "Rugby is a game to be played on your feet."

This has actually brought another point to me. If a player goes to ground, scoops the ball up and is then surronded by opposition. I have heard ref's shout "let him up". I don't believe the players have to let him get up, again those on their feet are King and unless he got up immediatley he cannot hold onto the ball.

Many thanks

 

[AndyKidd]

This has actually brought another point to me. If a player goes to ground, scoops the ball up and is then surronded by opposition. I have heard ref's shout "let him up". I don't believe the players have to let him get up, again those on their feet are King and unless he got up immediatley he cannot hold onto the ball.

Many thanks

Wolfie

If you search the threads you'll find that this particular senario has been discussed several times.

One example

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4800

 

[Dickie E]

Dickie

I disagree with you, 14.1 says the a player on the ground with no tackle must get up, release or pass the ball but nothing about him getting up with the ball if no tackle occurs.

LAW 14.1 PLAYER ON THE GROUND The player must immediately do one of three things: Get up with the ball, or Pass the ball, or Release the ball. A player who passes or releases the ball must also get up or move away from it at once. Advantage is played only if it happens immediately. Penalty: Penalty Kick

 

[OB..]

Sounds like a sensible call, as Jacko says those players on their feet are king. Interestingly the "not held" plea is a common one, as I recall a player doesn't have to be "held" he just has to be "brought to ground" and that means at least one knee has to touch the ground.

Law 15 Definition

A tackle occurs when the ball carrier is held by one or more opponents​

and is brought to ground.

 

[tim White]

Back to materiality? If there are no players on their feet there can be no disadvantage to anyone-no problem, have a siesta while we wait for the fatties to arrive. BUT once a player on his feet contests for the ball there is a possible penalty scenario. Once players contest for the ball his 'get up with the ball' option has already dissapeared, he must release and make the ball available (make an effort NOT to obstruct access to it). Any attempt at this time to affect the ball or players on their feet leaves the player 'off their feet' liable to penalty, and I would suggest sooner, rather than later.:nono:

 

[Rawling]

Probably a dumb question, but why does he lose the ability to get up with the ball once other players arrive?

 

[OB..]

Rawling - if he is off the ground when an opponent arrives, then of course he can simply be tackled. You are therefore talking about him still being on the ground. If he tries to get up while an opponent is trying to take the ball, he is holding on to it while on the ground. That is illegal.

 

[tim White]

Having mulled over the often heard squeal "Let Him Up!" I now believe it to be a shortened version of the correct phrase "Let him up BEFORE YOU TACKLE HIM (and make sure you stay on your feet please), thank you very much". There are local variations to this exact wording but most people only remember the first three words.

 

[Phil E]

Having mulled over the often heard squeal "Let Him Up!" I now believe it to be a shortened version of the correct phrase "Let him up BEFORE YOU TACKLE HIM (and make sure you stay on your feet please), thank you very much". There are local variations to this exact wording but most people only remember the first three words.

Why would you want to let him up and then tackle him, when you can simply take the ball off him while he is on the floor?

 

[Deeps]

Having mulled over the often heard squeal "Let Him Up!" I now believe it to be a shortened version of the correct phrase "Let him up BEFORE YOU TACKLE HIM (and make sure you stay on your feet please), thank you very much". There are local variations to this exact wording but most people only remember the first three words.

Shouldn't we be more concerned with preventing the first potential offence of making the ball unplayable rather than preventing what might become the second offence? Surely the rights of the player on his feet are more important by making sure that the player on the floor allows the ball to be played.

Further, if the ball is always made available then there is no reason for the player on his feet to consider tackling the grounded player. Cure the first problem and there won't be a second problem.

 

[SimonSmith]

Tim - I think I saw the inherent irony in your post!