Munster V Southern Kings Interesting stat

[L'irlandais]

Forgive me if my command of English is going to pot after 20 years on these foreign shores.
I read that as «*handling the ball is the ruck is one of those penalty offenses which often gets over looked*» not in anyway saying Munster are entitled to use hands in the ruck. How else do you explain the ball being presented at the back of each ruck? If you want to make an example of a professional referee, feel free to start in the English premiership, fairly sure they are as tolerant as the Italian guy in this discussion.
Define ruck, nowadays every player is off they feet and so the chances of driving over to win the ball are severely reduced, which may go some way to explain why making the ball available is tolerated.

The sheer volume of handling errors, isn’t limited to penalty offenses. It was a wet and windy night, the visitors had left the Southern Hemisphere and were unused to the conditions, perhaps unused to the all weather pitch too. Every time they made inroads into the Munster half they generally knocked on, scrum Red. Say 8 to Munster on the night, plus a free kick, and 19 turnovers. Poor outing for SK
ESPN

A couple of stats which might interest you, so far this season (23 games) Munster have only had 3 yellow cards. They have conceded 117 penalties in total that’s marginally more than 5 a game. Given that they conceded 17 against Glasgow it figures there must be games where they conceded less than 5, right?

 

[L'irlandais]

The Southern Kings have a serious problem with ill discipline right since the start of the current season. 22 yellow cards and two red cards so far in this competition. So it’s not like they didn’t just listen to the match referee, they haven’t listened to their own coach who said on day one, discipline let them down against Zebre and would have to improve.

 

[L'irlandais]

The other thing to bear in mind, is given that Southern Kings don’t play in the European Cup competition, that is 24 cards in only 15 games, or over 3 cards every couple of games. Compared to Munster’s 3 cards in 23 matches.

Munster traditionly like to slow down opposition ball at the break down. However to call this cheating is a bit much. Welsh clubs like quick ball at the (attacking)* ruck. This is achieved by the ball carrier, aggressively wriggling and placing the ball (without releasing it) deep into his own camp. Preventing the defenders getting the ball until support arrives. Retaining possession of the ball once tackled isn’t an option allow in the LoTG. It’s as much cheating as Munster’s shoulders lower than hips jackler.

*Funnily once defending their own line, even Welsh clubs suddenly forget the importance of quick ruck ball.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Keep changing your stance t oavoid the issues being asked!

One cheating is allowed (yours) others are not (theirs). Sorry that is not the way to judge fairness.

 

[L'irlandais]

Not sure where you get the idea that I condone cheating from.
I am certainly not changing my stance. The very first thing I wrote in this discussion was that I thought Andrea Piardi had a reasonably good game. I stick by that, the media aren’t talking about him so that’s positive for a referee. You appear to be trying to infer he didn’t have a good game, on the basis the penalty count was so skewed. You will need to bring some evidence to the discussion to support this position.

All professional rugby union squads play to the limit of what is allowed. My #23 merely points out that Munster are no more guilty (Probaly less so) than any other club, Cardiff Blues included.
I think Phil E best answered your original question, it is far more likely that the stats you found were incorrect, and the 0 results from a glitch in the Opta software. Nobody else is talking about the Italian referee’s debut match, so odd that you think he got decisions wrong. Listening to the game live, none of the commentators mentioned any thing amiss in the referee’s decision making. Over a dozen different referees have officiated Munster’s games this season, most of them found little to penalise them for. The jackler having his shoulders below his hips is a bugbear of mine, because I don’t believe he is supporting his weight. For me personally, it’s akin to being off his feet, because his weight is thru his hands down on the ball.
Obviously referees in the Pro 14 have their own brief about this, and my opinion counts for little. So far from condoning Munster’s tatic, I was simply pointing it out. You have to ask Pro 14 refs if they are allowing it.

 

[L'irlandais]

Do you really thing there would not be a single offence that was material or from which no advantage was gained? I can only conclude that ti was an incredible display of discipline or the ref missed a lot. I wonder which it was?

Your logic is flawed here; it is not an either/or situation. There are many reasons why this statistic may have occurred. While it certainly was a masterclass in discipline from Munster against the most indisciplined side in the conference, that doesn’t mean to say that an experienced Munster side may not have pulled the wool over an inexperienced ref’s eyes at times during the game.

Slow motion of 1 minute of play
Time will tell, the Italian ref will rack up a few more games at this level giving us a better idea of his strengths and weaknesses.

 

[DocY]

I didn't see the game - only the scoreline and this stat - but how much possession and territory did Munster have?

They were clearly dominant, but if they were literally never put under pressure then not conceding a single penalty wouldn't be all that surprising.

 

[L'irlandais]

I linked the EspN stats page in my #21
Firstly it was a game of two halves, the first half being hard fought.
Munster (first half)
45% Possession
52% Territory
Before the RSA side buckled, Munster scoring the bonus point try on the hour mark.
Munster (second half)
68% Possession
66% Territory

But those stats don’t show how each and every time Kings got into the Munster half of the field, their handling errors cost them scoring chances. A look at Munster’s seventh try will give you an idea of how woeful they were. Yes it was windy, and there was driving rain for much of the match, but both teams had to contend with the weather. This crowd are starting to make Zebre look good, which takes some doing.

At 26 years of age, this referee shows promise.

 

[L'irlandais]

In terms of Internationally capped players, Kings have Bjorn Basson (11 caps RSA) and Dries van Schalkwyk (15 caps for Italy). Only the bok winger lining out for them in Cork. So definitely lacking experience.

I think the 43 to nil scoreline doesn’t really reflect how hard Kings were to beat. That said, I think Kings beat themselves in some respects, with a combination of indiscipline, handling errors and a scrum-half unable to deal with being on the back foot all the time.

Munster lost turnover ball 16 times, but defended well when they did lose the ball and so their line was not often threatened. Kings were turned over 19 times, but their weak defense meant this was punished again and again. Even when they were still in the game during the first half, they leaked 2 tries. When they did have possession it was either deep in their own half, or on rare occasions in the opposition half when they coughed up possession cheaply.

After 20 minutes visiting fans were saying:
Please substitute Ungerer and we might actually have a chance here....
(*9 Stefan Ungerer)
After 42 minutes it was more:
Well i give up .... Ungerer having a shocker yet they persist with him

There were of course the usual cries that the ref was blind following the first YC. And one visiting fan who suggested the ref was more biased than Jaco Peyper. Although for me this only shows South Africans fail to understand Europe. Why an Italian referee would be biased towards an Irish provincial side is beyond me.

Not at all sure how they managed to get two victories this season.
Glasgow or Edinburgh supporters, any thoughts ?
Last season they only managed to beat the Dragons.

 

[L'irlandais]

Andrea Piardi has yet to make it into the Baker’s dozen of the Pro 14 Elite referee squad. Perhaps he’s being groomed as a replacement for some upcoming retirement. It’d be nice if RRF encouraged up and coming refs, rather than jump to conclusions about their mismanagement of a game. (Or at least bring some evidence of mismanagement to the table when jumping to conclusions.).

The guy referees Top12 week in , week out, which is the highest tier of the national rugby union competition in Italy. Not sure what the equivalent level is in other countries, but at a level I can never dream of making.
Remember nobody’s perfect, but then he doesn’t ref rugby.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Your logic is flawed here; it is not an either/or situation. There are many reasons why this statistic may have occurred. While it certainly was a masterclass in discipline from Munster against the most indisciplined side in the conference, that doesn’t mean to say that an experienced Munster side may not have pulled the wool over an inexperienced ref’s eyes at times during the game.

Your argument is undrmined by your self. either they were amazingly disciplined or they "cleverly cheated" both cpould not happen.


Please take off your Irish bias that is once again very evident.

 

[L'irlandais]

I am not entirely sure which part of this you are having trouble with.
The cheating in Professional rugby affects each and every professional rugby team on the planet. Munster don’t have a monopoly on it.

Munster have given away less than 5 penalties in each of their previous 22 (out of 23) games, irregardless who reff’d the match. So 14 Elite referees, (higher than the level you or I ref at) found Munster to be a most disciplined side. Munster once again gave away less than 5 penalties, in this game so were incredibly disciplined, by any one’s standards. Proof of this being incredible seems to be that you don’t believe it. So that Munster were disciplined and that they bent the LoTG are both true of this match. I feel the proof of this will be that we shall be seeing more of this young referee in the future. Andrea had a reasonably good debut in Top flight rugby. Like any other referee, on this forum, or in telly rugby, he follows a brief given to him.