Offside from a kick - where is the penalty taken from

[Dan Cottrell]

Blue team kicks the ball and there are BLUE players in front of him.

I understand all the reasons for a penalty possibly being awarded, I just cannot nail down in the Law book WHERE the penalty is taken from (and/or scrum option).

Some guidance to the relevant law please.

 

[Davet]

Scrum is easy - it is where the ball was last played by the offending team. ie where it was kicked from.

The PK is taken at the place of infringement - which is where the offside player nearest an opponent waiting to play the ball, or nearest to where the ball bounces

Confusingly this is provided for under 11.4 f and g - 11.4 is supposedly to do with the 10m Law - but they apply to general play as well.

 

[Dan Cottrell]

So 9 kicks from the base of the scrum. His winger starts in front...
PK there? Or where he eventually realises the error of his ways? Or where the ball bounces?
Or, he runs forward 5m then, perhaps with prompting, halts and is not involved at all - play on?
I cannot work out where the infringement is (perhaps it is really simple...but I just cannot seem to nail this one at all)

 

[The Fat]

So 9 kicks from the base of the scrum. His winger starts in front...
PK there? Or where he eventually realises the error of his ways? Or where the ball bounces?
Or, he runs forward 5m then, perhaps with prompting, halts and is not involved at all - play on?
I cannot work out where the infringement is (perhaps it is really simple...but I just cannot seem to nail this one at all)

Sanction: When a player is penalised for being offside in general play, the opposing team
chooses either a penalty kick at the place of infringement or a scrum at the place where the
offending team last played the ball. If it was last played in that team’s in-goal, the scrum is
formed 5 metres from the goal line in line with where it was played.

Winger starts moving forward (having started from an offside position).
Ref calls to stop/hold etc but winger ignores and keeps moving forward.

Non infringing team has option of scrum where #9 kicked or PK where winger started moving forward.

 

[Taff]

So 9 kicks from the base of the scrum. His winger starts in front... PK there? Or where he eventually realises the error of his ways? Or where the ball bounces?

Where the ball lands would be relevant if the No 9 was tackled late, but it isn't relevant for offside.

I cannot work out where the infringement is (perhaps it is really simple...but I just cannot seem to nail this one at all)

It will suddenly click. The PK option is the one furthest from the infringing teams goal line - the scrum option is the one nearest the infringing teams goal line. If you think about it logically, having them the other way around would make no sense at all.

In the example you gave, there is probably a fair distance between the two. Sometimes the difference between the mark for the scrum and the mark for the PK option may only a foot or so.

 

[Ian_Cook]

The PK option is the one furthest from the infringing teams goal line - the scrum option is the one nearest the infringing teams goal line.

Other way around Taff.

Giving up a PK closer to your goal-line is greater disadvantage

If 9 kicks the ball and 14 is running forwards ahead of the kick, PK is along the line across the field that passes through where the ball was kicked, and opposite the point where the 14 was in front.

If 9 kicks the ball and 14 is already a long way ahead of kick and does not retire until put onside, or interferes with play, PK is 10m back from a line across the field where the opponent played the ball in line where the infringing player was standing.

 

[Dan Cottrell]

Thanks all. Clearer and clearer.
I am happy with the scrum/PK options, it is the place of the infringement that was not clear. The "late tackle" option was the one that kept coming into my mind and confusing it.
I am just starting up the referee ladder, Level 1 to Level 2 in Ospreys region, so making sure I have some of the fiddly laws filed away. Welsh mens rugby is a slightly different challenge to Welsh boys rugby (and well, Welsh Womens rugby...I reffed some of the training games when I was with the Welsh Women...)

 

[Dan Cottrell]

Ok...clicked my reply before I saw Ian's post...not sure I understand the last line!

 

[Ian_Cook]

Ok...clicked my reply before I saw Ian's post...not sure I understand the last line!

You mean this one

If 9 kicks the ball and 14 is already a long way ahead of kick and does not retire until put onside, or interferes with play, PK is 10m back from a line across the field where the opponent played the ball in line where the infringing player was standing

If so, its the 10m law in play here.

Say Blue 9 is covering back, and kicks a clearing kick from inside his 22m. Blue 14 is still on his 10m line from the previous play. The ball kicked by Blue 9 is coming down on his 10m line. Blue 14 must retire immediately, and keep retiring until he is at least 10m back from his 10m line, or until Blue 9, or another Blue player who was behind Blue 9 when the kick was made, passes him (putting him onside). Blue 14 can then move forward again.

Go to this page

http://www.irblaws.com/EN/laws/3/11...lay/offside-under-the-10metre-law/#clause_103

Click 11.4 and then click the little red video camera icons to see examples

Click the little red video camera icon on 11.5 to see how a player is put onside under the 10m law

 

[Davet]

Taff is correct, in general terms -

15 kicks the ball from his own 22, that would be whare the scrum option is

14 is 20m upfield of 15 (ie further from infringing team's goal line). He advances (or if within 10m of a line across where the ball will bounce/ opponent waiting he fails to retire). That is the point at which the infringement crystallises - and the place where PK would be awarded.

If another teammate was also offside and was even closer to the opponent waiting to play the ball then out of the two possible locations then the one nearest that opponent would be the place selected for the PK.

Whilst the idea that the PK (under 10m Law) should be on a line 10m back from a player waiting to play the ball is attractive - that doesn't seem to be what the Law, reading the sanction at 11.4.f and 11.4.g together, says. The place of the infringement is where the offender was when he infringed. If another player was even nearer the waiting player then that is where the place is.

It does seem a little counter-intuitive, and would be better for the victims if the PK was nearer rather than further from the offenders goal-line, but... we don't write 'em.

 

[Davet]

ie - under 10m law he infringed when he failed to retire - where was he when he infringed? He was where he was stood. That is the place of infringement.

 

[Ian_Cook]

ie - under 10m law he infringed when he failed to retire - where was he when he infringed? He was where he was stood. That is the place of infringement.

' Yes, sorry Davet. I didn't word that as well as I meant to. The discussion was about how far away PKs were, place of infringement etc. A PK under the 10m has be at at least as close as 10m back from the place where the ball was played by the opponent (or closer), otherwise the player hasn't actually infringed.

 

[Waspsfan]

Dan - the problem with RRs.com is that sometimes you ask a simple question, you get a simple answer, and then follows a pedantic and confusing argument about law terminology that leaves you more confused!

Scrum - where they last played it - ie where he kicked it from

Penalty - place of infringement (where the player you are penalising was). So at a kick this is usually 2-3m ahead of the scrum location but in the wingers channel where he was a bit keen to chase, or if it is a lazy chap from a previous play just ping him early and award the penalty where he is.

You can play advantage for these penalties, or try and shout and prevent having to give it. But moving forward from an offside position at a kick limits space and is something we are trying to clamp down on!

Also read for yourself the 10m law and the penalty options after late charging the kicker. These are different!

 

[Ian_Cook]

Just to clarify

This is a bit of an artificial scenario, because the game is dynamic and the players will move.

1. The Red player on the far left kicks the ball.

- ALL the red players are now offside in general play, and must start to retire.

- NONE of the Red players are offside under the 10m law, because the ball hasn't landed yet.

2. The ball is caught by the black player on the far right (lets say for argument's sake, he's 10m outside the 22m line)

- ALL the red players in front of the 22m line are now offside under the 10m Law and must not take any part in play or move toward the Black player. They can only be put onside by the actions of a team-mate under Law 11.2, and not by any action of the black player

- ALL the red players inside the 22m are still offside. but they can only be put onside by the actions of a team-mate under Law 11.2, and/or by the action of the black player under Law 11.3

 

[Davet]

Waspsfan - what could be simpler than "where was he when he infringed? He was where he was stood 9or moved forward). That is the place of infringement.

And actually understanding the Law isn't a matter of pedantry, it is simple common sense. If you read into into it stuff that isn't there then you will get wrong on the pitch.

 

[Davet]

Ian - agreed, and the place of infringement is (likely) where the red player with the scrum cap, or his team mate with the white headband close to putative reciever are (if they keep moving with him they will be closest players to him) It is being closest to the receiver that identifies the place of infringement from which the PK option would be taken. Or closest to where the ball will alight.

 

[Dan Cottrell]

Just to say that last season, in a close cup schools cup game, I gave a penalty for kick chase offside...I shouted that the players should not move forward, but they continued to do so, making no effort to stop until 10 or 15m up the field and (as has been said), reduced the space for the receiver. I gave the penalty where they first set off, not 10m or so later. Penalty was correct, place of infringement though?

 

[Ian_Cook]

Ian - agreed, and the place of infringement is (likely) where the red player with the scrum cap, or his team mate with the white headband close to putative reciever are (if they keep moving with him they will be closest players to him) It is being closest to the receiver that identifies the place of infringement from which the PK option would be taken. Or closest to where the ball will alight.

The tricky thing about this scenario (and its common enough, happening many times per game) is understanding how the respective sets of offside players can be put on side.

Those players inside the 22m can advance once the ball is caught by the Black player and he has either run 5m, or kicked or passed the ball, or if he plays at it and doesn't catch it.

However, those players in front of the 22m line cannot be put onside any other way than by being played onside by a team mate. If, lets say, the red player who kicked the ball, then fell down injured, the Black player must be left alone by all those players, all the way to the 22m line. Only those players who were inside the 22m are allowed to touch him.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Just to say that last season, in a close cup schools cup game, I gave a penalty for kick chase offside...I shouted that the players should not move forward, but they continued to do so, making no effort to stop until 10 or 15m up the field and (as has been said), reduced the space for the receiver. I gave the penalty where they first set off, not 10m or so later. Penalty was correct, place of infringement though?

[LAWS]Sanction: When a player is penalised for being offside in general play, the opposing team
chooses either a penalty kick at the place of infringement or a scrum at the place where the
offending team last played the ball. If it was last played in that team’s in-goal, the scrum is
formed 5 metres from the goal line in line with where it was played.[/LAWS]

In your case, the place of infringement and the place where the ball was last played were essentially the same, i.e. where the offside player moved ahead of a line through the kick.

I have no problem with where you awarded the kick.

 

[Davet]

They first became offside at the place where they first started moving forwards. That is the place of infringement. So you were absolutely correct.