one man unplayable maul

[Phil E]

There has to be a sequence of events.
Maul collapses as red ball carrier forces his way to ground and blue defenders, who are entitled to hang, end up on top of the ball carrier.
The law allows the ball carrier to deliberately go to ground but says that he must make the ball immediately available. This requires a further action by the ball carrier, the next step in the sequence if you like. He goes to ground and immediately starts to place the ball towards his team mates. For all intents and purposes he is making the ball immediately available.
Now are you guys saying that rather than having a look to see if the ball is available/being made available, you simply blow for a turn over scrum because the ball isn't instantly in the open behind the collapsed maul??? How is the ball supposed to get there? There has to be a sequence.
In my scenario above, I'm saying that as the ball carrier is in the action of placing the ball back (thereby making it available), two more defenders flop on the collapsed maul. All of this happens in a second or two.

There is no series of events mentioned here.
The ball is either available or it isn't.

[LAWS]17.6 UNSUCCESSFUL END TO A MAUL
(g)If the ball carrier in a maul goes to ground, including being on one or both knees or sitting,
the referee orders a scrum unless the ball is immediately available.[/LAWS]

 

[The Fat]

In this scenario when the maul is collapsed, it is required that the ball be immediately available, therefore the referee should blow the whistle immediately if it is NOT immediately available. Note: players wanting to pile in is evidence that the ball is not immediately available. So the opportunity for player to pile in after the collapse should not occur, the whistle should have already been blown.

So my solution, be quick with the whistle, call the turnover before the problems arise.

So if there were say 8 players in the maul and the ball carrier and 2 defenders who had hold of him end up on the ground as the result of the ball carrier forcing his way to ground but the other 5 players remain on their feet, would you have a look to see if the ball carrier was making the ball available or would you blow it up because the ball wasn't "immediately" available?

 

[The Fat]

There is no series of events mentioned here.
The ball is either available or it isn't.

[LAWS]17.6 UNSUCCESSFUL END TO A MAUL
(g)If the ball carrier in a maul goes to ground, including being on one or both knees or sitting,
the referee orders a scrum unless the ball is immediately available.[/LAWS]

Can you give an example of how the ball would be "immediately" available if not for an action by the ball carrier?

 

[Phil E]

Can you give an example of how the ball would be "immediately" available if not for an action by the ball carrier?

As he goes to ground he places the ball.
If he can't, or doesn't then its not immediate.

The usual reason for going to ground by the ball carrier is because he is wrapped up and cant get the ball to the back of the maul, he deserves to lose it. He shouldn't therefore be allowed to go to ground and then wrestle the ball free and then manoeuvre it to the back. That is not immediate.

 

[ddjamo]

As he goes to ground he places the ball.
If he can't, or doesn't then its not immediate.

The usual reason for going to ground by the ball carrier is because he is wrapped up and cant get the ball to the back of the maul, he deserves to lose it. He shouldn't therefore be allowed to go to ground and then wrestle the ball free and then manoeuvre it to the back. That is not immediate.

totally agree here. problem is - the opposition keeps grabbing and pulling while on the deck. there either needs to be "no movement" or the man with the ball must be able to protect the ball. this needs to be addressed one of these days.

 

[Browner]

Red take ball into contact and a maul forms.
Blue have the ball carrier who now works hard to go to ground and succeeds but blue defenders aren't letting go and all end up in a pile on the ground.
The referee is looking to see if the ball is being made available and two more blue players who were not part of the maul dive onto the pile to make sure the ball is trapped in there to ensure a turn over scrum.

Your decision = ???
My decision = PK against the blue players diving/flopping on top to kill the ball.

If they want a law reference, start with 17.2(f) or throw 14.2(b) in for good measure.

Both of those are tenuous & stretching law IMO.........
I'm in the "if you can't make it available immediately - you lose it" camp.

 

[Greig]

So if there were say 8 players in the maul and the ball carrier and 2 defenders who had hold of him end up on the ground as the result of the ball carrier forcing his way to ground but the other 5 players remain on their feet, would you have a look to see if the ball carrier was making the ball available or would you blow it up because the ball wasn't "immediately" available?

If the BC is wrapped up by the two defenders so the ball is not immediately available, I would blow it as per 17.6(g) and award a scrum. Further I would immediately blow the whistle and stop play to prevent further (potentially foul play) contest for the ball.

 

[OB..]

If the BC is wrapped up by the two defenders so the ball is not immediately available, I would blow it as per 17.6(g) and award a scrum. Further I would immediately blow the whistle and stop play to prevent further (potentially foul play) contest for the ball.

Agreed.
[LAWS]17.6 (f) When the ball in a maul becomes unplayable, the referee does not allow prolonged wrestling for it. A scrum is ordered.[/LAWS](I'm not sure "prolonged" is really needed.)

 

[The Fat]

If the BC is wrapped up by the two defenders so the ball is not immediately available, I would blow it as per 17.6(g) and award a scrum. Further I would immediately blow the whistle and stop play to prevent further (potentially foul play) contest for the ball.

I do agree with you that if 2 defenders have the ball carrier and the ball completely wrapped up when the ball carrier goes to ground, it is pretty obvious that the ball is not coming out and it is whistle for turn over scrum. However, what if the ball carrier is held by 2 defenders but they do not have the ball wrapped up and the ball carrier manages to get to ground and the 2 defenders go down with him, leaving say 5 players on their feet. How long do you give the ball carrier to make the ball available before you blow for a turn over scrum?
1 second?
2 seconds?
3 seconds?
4 seconds?
(please choose one)

Now same scenario but ALL players in the maul end up on the ground but the ball carrier is still able to do something to make the ball available.
How long do you give the ball carrier to make the ball available before you blow for a turn over scrum?
1 second?
2 seconds?
3 seconds?
4 seconds?
(please choose one)

Phil E, Browner and OB,
please feel free to give an answer to these two questions.

 

[Phil E]

Phil E, Browner and OB,
please feel free to give an answer to these two questions.

"How long is immediately?"

"As long as it takes me to say it".........that's what every referee I know says to that question.

 

[ChrisR]

Stop!

The terms "collapsed" and "immediately available" do not appear in the same bit of Law.

If a maul collapses it has ended unsuccessfully. Peep! Turnover scrum! No discussion. Law 17.6(b)

If a player with the ball in a maul goes to ground then the ball must be "immediately available" or it has ended unsuccessfully. There is not a requirement (ie. no sanction) in Law 17.6(g) for that player to play or release the ball but if it's not immediately available it's ended unsuccessfully. Peep! Turnover scrum!

"Available" can include on the ground and playable with the feet as per a ruck. (Yes, Dorothy, a maul can become a ruck).

 

[The Fat]

Stop!

The terms "collapsed" and "immediately available" do not appear in the same bit of Law.

If a maul collapses it has ended unsuccessfully. Peep! Turnover scrum! No discussion. Law 17.6(b)

If a player with the ball in a maul goes to ground then the ball must be "immediately available" or it has ended unsuccessfully. There is not a requirement (ie. no sanction) in Law 17.6(g) for that player to play or release the ball but if it's not immediately available it's ended unsuccessfully. Peep! Turnover scrum!

"Available" can include on the ground and playable with the feet as per a ruck. (Yes, Dorothy, a maul can become a ruck).

Regarding the part I have highlighted in red, what would you allow the ball carrier to do to make the ball available?
1) If he was able to place it back as he was going to ground?
2) If he went to ground facing his own team and was able to place it back?
3) If he went to ground facing his opponents but was able to immediately roll and place it back?

None of the above?
1?
2?
3?
A combination of any of 1, 2 or 3?
All of the above?

 

[OB..]

Regarding the part I have highlighted in red, what would you allow the ball carrier to do to make the ball available?
1) If he was able to place it back as he was going to ground?
2) If he went to ground facing his own team and was able to place it back?
3) If he went to ground facing his opponents but was able to immediately roll and place it back?

None of the above?
1?
2?
3?
A combination of any of 1, 2 or 3?
All of the above?

If the ball carrier has to struggle to get the ball back, then it was not immediately available. It was still caught in the maul.

 

[The Fat]

If the ball carrier has to struggle to get the ball back, then it was not immediately available. It was still caught in the maul.

Agree with you OB but that was not one of the 3 scenarios in my post. No struggling involved in any of the 3 scenarios, just an action by the ball carrier to make the ball available.

 

[OB..]

Agree with you OB but that was not one of the 3 scenarios in my post. No struggling involved in any of the 3 scenarios, just an action by the ball carrier to make the ball available.

You were focussing on the ball carrier making the ball available. The requirement is for it to be available - it is not essential for the ball carrier to do anything at all as long as the scrum half can immediately pick up the ball.

I did not like your (3) because if the player is facing the wrong way, it is unlikely that he will be able to roll over and place the ball easily. I prefer my formulation.

 

[ChrisR]

"Available" can include on the ground and playable with the feet as per a ruck. (Yes, Dorothy, a maul can become a ruck).

Last line of my previous post #31. If he can immediately place it or release it such that it can either be retrieved by the SH or played with the feet in the maul then "All of the above".

From a coaching perspective I prefer the BC to stay on his feet and force the ball to ground and play it back by foot.

 

[The Fat]

You were focussing on the ball carrier making the ball available. The requirement is for it to be available - it is not essential for the ball carrier to do anything at all as long as the scrum half can immediately pick up the ball.

I did not like your (3) because if the player is facing the wrong way, it is unlikely that he will be able to roll over and place the ball easily. I prefer my formulation.

A ball carrier goes to ground in an attempt to avoid a turn over scrum. As he is going to ground or as he hits the ground, it is natural that he will do something to help get the ball to a place where it is available. I think that my 3 scenarios, while not exhaustive, cover some of the things a ball carrier will do to avoid a turn over scrum.

 

[Browner]

A ball carrier goes to ground in an attempt to avoid a turn over scrum. As he is going to ground or as he hits the ground, it is natural that he will do something to help get the ball to a place where it is available. I think that my 3 scenarios, while not exhaustive, cover some of the things a ball carrier will do to avoid a turn over scrum.

Law expects everyone to remain on their feet in a maul [LAWS]. Players in a maul must endeavour to stay on their feet. [/LAWS] the allowance for the BC G2G is conditional upon the ball being immediately available (and this requires immediate release by BC.

No time allowance for the BC to then try and prevent a turnover through wriggling/repositioning/hanging/holding/wrestling, irrespective of whether his team would wish it, if others are preventing the BC making it available release then so be it = scrum.

The golden rule is, you take it into maul then you bring it out. Law (as written) doesnt want collapsed mauls hense a quick whistle is the expectation.

 

[The Fat]

I have been going through several videos of mauls where the ball carrier has gone to ground. The referees involved are Craig Joubert and Nigel Owens. In almost all of them, the time lapsed from when the BC goes to ground to the referee blowing his whistle for a turn over scrum ranges from 3 to 5 seconds. During that time, it is obvious that CJ and NO are looking to see if the ball is getting to a place where it becomes available. They are not blowing immediately. They are looking to see if play can continue which obviously means the team in possession doing something to make the ball "immediately" available.

I agree with all of you (Greig, Phil E, OB, Marauder, Browner) that the law says,
"If the ball carrier in a maul goes to ground, including being on one or both knees or sitting, the referee orders a scrum unless the ball is immediately available".

However, what I am saying is that the ball cannot magically appear at the back of the maul for the SH to be able to play it without some action by the ball carrier. In most of the videos I viewed, it is obvious that the referee is looking to see if the ball is making it's way (being made available if you like) to a point where the SH can play it.
The question then must be, are the two referees involved taking the view that providing the ball is immediately being moved from the ball carrier to a point where the SH can play it they deem that to satisfy the "being immediately available" requirement?
If the ball is not moving back or is obviously caught in by one or more defenders, then the referee will blow immediately (NO does this in one video I viewed as he could see that the defenders had the ball wrapped up as the ball carrier was going to ground. In that video he blows as soon as the BC goes to ground.

It is interesting that only Marauder seems prepared to allow the ball to be moved to a point where play can continue in post #36,
"If he can immediately place it or release it such that it can either be retrieved by the SH or played with the feet in the maul then "All of the above".

All other responders seem to be saying (happy to be corrected if I have misinterpreted), that at the instant the BC gets to ground, the ball must be at a place where the SH can immediately play it. My question is "How does it get from point A to point B?" There has to be an action by the ball carrier.

 

[Browner]

The Fat, NO & CJ with their AR's, TMOs, multi-camera angles, & citing officers can wait longer if they wish (and it wouldn't be the 1st time the elite guys allowed things different than the rest of the us ....crooked feeds, collapsing rucks etc ....)

But outside camera'd rugby a much faster reaction time is prudent IMO.

PS.... I can see problems if ' immediately' in law = 5s