Passfoward? YES/NO

[federecagno]

Hi all!
Not sure where to post this one, so sorry if I am in the wrong place.

Can you help me with this situation about if it this may be considered passfoward or not?

Player carrying the ball with both hands, he is stopped by a defender. Player with the ball extends his hands, still holding the ball with both hands, towards the opponent ingoal and then a same team player rip the ball.

It is important to mention some things to figure out the situation:
- carrier of the ball stopped
- arms are extendended towards the opposite ingoal with the ball (arms ahead his body)
- ball never left the player's hands only when it is ripped by his teammate

Hope I was clear enoght. I can see no clear explanation in the laws.
Have a great weekend.
Rgds

Federico
Rosario, Argentina.-

PS: I forgot to tell you my decision. "Play on" as ball never left his hands... no pass foward

 

[ddjamo]

Was the ball handed forward? was the teammate closer to the opponent's goal line than the ball when he ripped it?

 

[federecagno]

I think the answer is no as the teammate came from behind.

Trying to be as clear as I can (and a bit exaggerated too) ... if you take a picture from the sky you might see:
1st) opponent's goal
2nd) ball
3rd) teammate who will rip the ball
4th) carrier's body

 

[Dickie E]

was the teammate closer to the opponent's goal line than the ball when he ripped it?

that's an interesting question. If the answer is yes, then more an offside issue than a forward pass issue.

 

[OB..]

that's an interesting question. If the answer is yes, then more an offside issue than a forward pass issue.

Not so sure.
[LAWS]Definitions Pass: A player throws the ball to another player; if a player hands the ball to another player without throwing it, this is also a pass.
11.1 (a) [...]A player who receives an unintentional throw forward is not offside.[...][/LAWS]

Unless the player taking the ball is clearly in front of it, I would allow the pass.

 

[The Fat]

Not so sure.
[LAWS]Definitions Pass: A player throws the ball to another player; if a player hands the ball to another player without throwing it, this is also a pass.
11.1 (a) [...]A player who receives an unintentional throw forward is not offside.[...][/LAWS]

Unless the player taking the ball is clearly in front of it, I would allow the pass.

Surely the test is the location of the players' feet.

Just to get the OP scenario clear in my head,
- Ball carrier's feet are 10m from opponents goal line
- Ball carrier is holding ball out in front 9.4m from opponents goal line
- Team mate's feet are 9.6m from opponents goal line and takes the ball out of the ball carrier's hands.

Technically the team mate is offside and if he deliberately takes the ball from the ball carrier it is a PK to opposition.

If the ball carrier hands the ball to the team mate it could be seen as accidental offside or an unintentional forward pass, so in either case it would be a scrum to opposition.

Now in reality, with players moving and only talking distances of 20cm, it may not, in such a dynamic situation, be clear and obvious so therefore play on.

 

[talbazar]

Just a question, why are we taking into consideration where the ball carrier's feet are?

I'd rather take into consideration the position of the ripper compared to the ball.

Let me explain...
Change scenario slightly:
Red 12 get tackled low, as he falls forward and as he almost reaches the floor with his arms extended in front of him, he flicks the ball up (not backward, not forward) to a ream mate who goes and score...
Everyone would go: "Wow, great off load!!!"
Now, the team mate receiving the pass is in all facts a good 1.5m in front of the ball carriers feet, isn't he?

Back to the OP, if the ripper is behind the ball, in fact the "pass" is clearly backward, isn't it?
The same way it is in my scenario above!

Play on!

My 2 cents,
Pierre.

 

[The Fat]

Just a question, why are we taking into consideration where the ball carrier's feet are?

I'd rather take into consideration the position of the ripper compared to the ball.

Let me explain...
Change scenario slightly:
Red 12 get tackled low, as he falls forward and as he almost reaches the floor with his arms extended in front of him, he flicks the ball up (not backward, not forward) to a ream mate who goes and score...
Everyone would go: "Wow, great off load!!!"
Now, the team mate receiving the pass is in all facts a good 1.5m in front of the ball carriers feet, isn't he?

Back to the OP, if the ripper is behind the ball, in fact the "pass" is clearly backward, isn't it?
The same way it is in my scenario above!

Play on!

My 2 cents,
Pierre.

Red 8 standing still on the half way line facing opposition DBL and is held by blue 4.
Red 9 standing still half a metre ahead of him (i.e. closer to oppo DBL)
Red 8 reaches forward and holds the balls so it is now 20cm past the red 9 (i.e. 20cm closer to the oppo DBL than where red 9 is standing.
Red 9 takes the ball from red 8's hand.
What is your decision?

 

[Camquin]

Given Blue 9 took the ball standing still I wait until Red 4 tackles her into the next county then call for the medical team.

Law 7 permits a player to give the ball to any other player.
So in the OP's scenario - rather than any contrived one - unless there is a C&O and MATERIAL offside I would be looking for a reasons NOT to blow my whistle.

Camquin

 

[talbazar]

Red 8 standing still on the half way line facing opposition DBL and is held by blue 4.
Red 9 standing still half a metre ahead of him (i.e. closer to oppo DBL)
Red 8 reaches forward and holds the balls so it is now 20cm past the red 9 (i.e. 20cm closer to the oppo DBL than where red 9 is standing.
Red 9 takes the ball from red 8's hand.
What is your decision?

That's a very different scenario because at one point of time in what you describe Red 9 is offside (in front of the ball and the ball carrier)...

 

[Browner]

Red 8 standing still on the half way line facing opposition DBL and is held by blue 4.
Red 9 standing still half a metre ahead of him (i.e. closer to oppo DBL)
Red 8 reaches forward and holds the balls so it is now 20cm past the red 9 (i.e. 20cm closer to the oppo DBL than where red 9 is standing.
Red 9 takes the ball from red 8's hand.
What is your decision?

TMO scrutiny is always whether a pass leaves the hands forwards, so unless you can see C&O 'air' transfer, then a hand over will likely involve mutual 'relative velocity' delivery & receiving handling, surely???

Passers feet are irrelevant in the OP as its physically possible for a receivers feet to be c.3m forward of a passers feet ( if both are at full stretch) & them make a lateral pass between them legally in open play.

So a hand over ball transfer is 'Play on' for me.

I now request a WR relative velocity youtube video on this subject , to demonstrate, please WR.

 

[collybs]

Don't forget llaw 11.6b

11.6 Accidental offside
(b)

When a player hands the ball to a team-mate in front of the first player, the receiver is offside. Unless the receiver is considered to be intentionally offside (in which case a penalty kick is awarded), the receiver is accidentally offside and a scrum is formed with the opposing team throwing in the ball.

 

[The Fat]

Don't forget llaw 11.6b

Thank you collybs. I was waiting for someone to post that law reference.

This from my post #6;
If the ball carrier hands the ball to the team mate it could be seen as accidental offside or an unintentional forward pass, so in either case it would be a scrum to opposition.

 

[Browner]

Don't forget llaw 11.6b

Well, that's settled that then.

 

[ChrisR]

How the ball is held by the BC is immaterial. The relative position of the two players involved in the ball exchange is the only thing that matters. This determines whether the receiver is in an offside position and whether the ball was passed forward. From the OP I can't see any case for a sanction.

 

[The Fat]

Trying to be as clear as I can (and a bit exaggerated too) ... if you take a picture from the sky you might see:
1st) opponent's goal
2nd) ball
3rd) teammate who will rip the ball
4th) carrier's body

Marauder,
this from OP's 2nd post

 

[didds]

There's another scenario (or two!)


- Ball carrier's feet are 10m from opponents goal line
- Ball carrier is holding ball out in front 9.4m from opponents goal line
- Team mate's feet are 9.2m from opponents goal line and takes the ball out of the ball carrier's hands.

and

- Ball carrier's feet are 10m from opponents goal line
- Ball carrier is holding ball out in front 9.4m from opponents goal line
- Team mate's feet are 10.1m from opponents goal line and takes the ball out of the ball carrier's hands cis he has long arms.

In the interests of keepoing play going rather than the alternative be smash the BC to gro0und and ruck the ball, I'd say play on in both examples.

didds

 

[The Fat]

There's another scenario (or two!)


- Ball carrier's feet are 10m from opponents goal line
- Ball carrier is holding ball out in front 9.4m from opponents goal line
- Team mate's feet are 9.2m from opponents goal line and takes the ball out of the ball carrier's hands.
PK AGAINST TEAM MATE FOR INTENTIONAL/DELIBERATE OFFSIDE
and

- Ball carrier's feet are 10m from opponents goal line
- Ball carrier is holding ball out in front 9.4m from opponents goal line
- Team mate's feet are 10.1m from opponents goal line and takes the ball out of the ball carrier's hands cis he has long arms.
PLAY ON
In the interests of keepoing play going rather than the alternative be smash the BC to gro0und and ruck the ball, I'd say play on in both examples.

didds

My bits in red caps

 

[federecagno]

Thanks guys for all the answers. I think Fat's last post is clear enought considering both scenarios posted by Didds.

You won't believe me but last saturday I had a similar situation as this discussed. This case was intentional offside, then PK.

Rgds to all! thanks for your help! Have fun!