Players and coaches at fault.

[Pegleg]

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/scourge-scrum-wales-top-referee-8451864

Any issues with this?

 

[Phil E]

Similar 'ish article from the Guardian a few days ago.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2015/jan/13/rugby-union-uncontested-scrums-ospreys-northampton

Which doesn't even mention the referee at all, let alone being part of the problem.

 

[Pegleg]

I'm reading of people moaning about the refs discussing the problem players because they will ref them with bias.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

I thought the NO article the more considered of the two.

50% of the Gruniard article was one man's wishful thinking with a few emotive lines about fractured skulls thrown in for good measure.

 

[matty1194]

I'm reading of people moaning about the refs discussing the problem players because they will ref them with bias.

I wonder if the refs/IRB/World Rugby had came out and publicly named the players that cause the most dramas if the moaners would be happier!!!

 

[Browner]

I'm reading of people moaning about the refs discussing the problem players because they will ref them with bias.

Isnt this Catch 22 pegleg ....... if known problem (elite) players aren't identified (discussed) , then each referee has to find out during each scrum at each match and doing this takes effort ,time and escalation management and resets etc ..... Which are some of the issues the top matches are being criticised for.

So, the alternative is what?

 

[SimonSmith]

Much of what he says right, but in a superficial way.

The fact that according to him there were games where the scrums were not a problem presupposes that those scrums were also conducted lawfully, and I'm not convinced that that was the case.

What NO is skating right over is the fact that referees, whilst not directly the cause of messy scrums, are so complicit in creating an environment where scrums can be as messy as they are that they could be held to be just as culpable.

There has been a gradual erosion over many many years of the standard of refereeing the scrum, especially the put in. I tend to agree with BCM's stated position which is that if you root cause the issue, then ensuring a straight put in would solve the vast majority of the problems. However, the usual disclaimer from Elite referees is that there is too much other stuff going on to prioritize the put in. That conveniently ignores the idea that if you DID prioritize the put in, that multitude of things they have to look for would diminish. It is also patently absurd to say there's too much to look for.

Anecdotal evidence: I bet we all ensure a straight put in. I also bet that we have far fewer scrum incidents. Now, correlation isn't causation, but it's a strong datum point.

 

[OB..]

I tend to agree with BCM's stated position which is that if you root cause the issue, then ensuring a straight put in would solve the vast majority of the problems.

If the scrum is moving, a straight feed is impossible. An essential pre-requisite was to remove the hit, which has now more or less been achieved. However the players are still trying to get some kind of advantage at the Set. I don't see how a straight feed in itself would stop this.

However, the usual disclaimer from Elite referees is that there is too much other stuff going on to prioritize the put in. That conveniently ignores the idea that if you DID prioritize the put in, that multitude of things they have to look for would diminish.

It is not a simple either/or. It is a fact that the moment of the feed is exactly the moment when the shove comes on and problems are likely to arise.

Anecdotal evidence: I bet we all ensure a straight put in. I also bet that we have far fewer scrum incidents. Now, correlation isn't causation, but it's a strong datum point.

At my levels we certainly do not get the same power and technique being applied. The greater the power the greater the likelihood that the resultant forces will find a weakness, aided, of course, but whatever dark arts are being employed.

 

[SimonSmith]

If the scrum is moving, a straight feed is impossible. An essential pre-requisite was to remove the hit, which has now more or less been achieved. However the players are still trying to get some kind of advantage at the Set. I don't see how a straight feed in itself would stop this.

If you ensure a straight feed, does the need to win an advantage at the set still exist to the same degree? I think a lot of unrest comes from the fact that the defensive scrum knows it has no chance of winning anything and so sets out to disrupt; the offence then has to counteract that, and then we're into a negative spiral.

It is not a simple either/or. It is a fact that the moment of the feed is exactly the moment when the shove comes on and problems are likely to arise.

At the Elite level, they can make better use of the ARs to help

You make good points. But I think this problem never gets cracked until all the responsible parties admit it and change. And that has to include the referees.

 

[OB..]

You make good points. But I think this problem never gets cracked until all the responsible parties admit it and change. And that has to include the referees.

Amen to that.

 

[Pegleg]

Isnt this Catch 22 pegleg ....... if known problem (elite) players aren't identified (discussed) , then each referee has to find out during each scrum at each match and doing this takes effort ,time and escalation management and resets etc ..... Which are some of the issues the top matches are being criticised for.

So, the alternative is what?

Totally agree with you.

 

[andyscott]

I had a level 5 game yesterday shit load of scrums and the weather was horrendous.

2 PKs for standing up
and 1 reset the whole game.

The rest of the time they completed. Because the players wanted to scrummage.

 

[Pegleg]

I had a level 5 game yesterday shit load of scrums and the weather was horrendous.

2 PKs for standing up
and 1 reset the whole game.

The rest of the time they completed. Because the players wanted to scrummage.

The bold bit is absolutely right.

 

[Browner]

I had a level 5 game yesterday shit load of scrums and the weather was horrendous.

2 PKs for standing up
and 1 reset the whole game.

The rest of the time they completed. Because the players wanted to scrummage.

Law reference for the "Standing up" offence Andy ?

Really..... not a single unstraight feed???? Nor any binding PKs????

Did you referee vicars v brown owls? :biggrin:

 

[andyscott]

Law reference for the "Standing up" offence Andy ?

Really..... not a single unstraight feed???? Nor any binding PKs????

Did you referee vicars v brown owls? :biggrin:

Choice of 2,

Binding.

Or

Being in a position to push FK, but its deliberate offending/playing unfairly so that makes it a PK.


All feeds down the middle, watched like a hawk, both SH I have refereed before and they knew.

No binding PK (other than discussed above), obviously as no collapses???