Question 2 MAUL

[The Fat]

OK.
crossref has suggested a new thread so here it is.
Following on from my last thread re stopping a PK from going over the crossbar, this one is on the maul.

QUESTION 2 MAUL

Team A takes the ball into a maul. Team B "rips" the ball away from Team A within the maul. The maul then goes to ground legally, and the ball is available to be played at the back of the maul, but does not look likely to be played immediately by Team B. Which of the following statements is wrong?

A) The referee should call for Team B to "Use it!"

B) Team B has 5 seconds to use the ball after being told to use it by the referee.

C) If Team B does not use the ball within 5 seconds after being told to use it, the referee awards a scrum to Team B, because Team B did not take the ball into the maul initially.

D) If Team B does not use the ball within 5 seconds after being told to use it, the referee awards a scrum to Team A, because the ball was not used in time by Team B.


Single letter answer only please. After we get a few answers, we can go back and ask for a law reference to support your initial answer.
Cheers

 

[Rushforth]

All four are "wrong".

 

[Dickie E]

C is incorrect

 

[Ian_Cook]

D) is incorrect

or

C) is incorrect

 

[The Fat]

Seeing that I started this thread after originally putting this question in another thread, here are two other answers from that thread (just so we keep track of everyone's answers.

menace wrote: C is wrong.
Nigib wrote: What he said

So that is two votes for C

 

[Ian_Cook]

Seeing that I started this thread after originally putting this question in another thread, here are two other answers from that thread (just so we keep track of everyone's answers.

menace wrote: C is wrong.
Nigib wrote: What he said

So that is two votes for C

There isn't just one answer, so it 2½ votes for C

 

[The Fat]

There isn't just one answer, so it 2½ votes for C

Will discuss after we get more answers to see what the split is:hap:

 

[Dickie E]

Seeing that I started this thread after originally putting this question in another thread, here are two other answers from that thread (just so we keep track of everyone's answers.

menace wrote: C is wrong.
Nigib wrote: What he said

So that is two votes for C

counting mine that is 3½ votes for C

 

[menace]

D) is incorrect

or

C) is incorrect

You're a referee....you can't hedge your bets?!

 

[Ian_Cook]

You're a referee....you can't hedge your bets?!

What I would do in that situation is not necessarily the same as what I would give as an answer to the question.

If you asked me "What would I do?", the answer would be, I would call "use-it" and if they didn't use it within 5 seconds, I would order a scrum, and give the throw-in to Team B.

 

[menace]

What I would do in that situation is not necessarily the same as what I would give as an answer to the question.

If you asked me "What would I do?", the answer would be, I would call "use-it" and if they didn't use it within 5 seconds, I would order a scrum, and give the throw-in to Team B.

Therefore you think D is wrong??? (Lets not quibble on the why yet...just that you'd call a scrum and B would feed)

 

[Ian_Cook]

Therefore you think D is wrong??? (Lets not quibble on the why yet...just that you'd call a scrum and B would feed)

Yes, and

Yes

But I could understand why some would consider C wrong, and in some ways, so do I!

Confused yet?

 

[Taff]

I would say C was the wrong one.

 

[RobLev]

OK.
crossref has suggested a new thread so here it is.
Following on from my last thread re stopping a PK from going over the crossbar, this one is on the maul.

QUESTION 2 MAUL

Team A takes the ball into a maul. Team B "rips" the ball away from Team A within the maul. The maul then goes to ground legally, and the ball is available to be played at the back of the maul, but does not look likely to be played immediately by Team B. Which of the following statements is wrong?

A) The referee should call for Team B to "Use it!"

B) Team B has 5 seconds to use the ball after being told to use it by the referee.

C) If Team B does not use the ball within 5 seconds after being told to use it, the referee awards a scrum to Team B, because Team B did not take the ball into the maul initially.

D) If Team B does not use the ball within 5 seconds after being told to use it, the referee awards a scrum to Team A, because the ball was not used in time by Team B.


Single letter answer only please. After we get a few answers, we can go back and ask for a law reference to support your initial answer.
Cheers

C is wrong; D isn't completely right.

This is making an assumption as to what is meant by "goes to ground legally" which may not be correct.

 

[Dickie E]

Single letter answer only please.

Looks like all those who aren't playing cloak & dagger pick C. Issue closed & time to move on? Or do we need to ask the others in a pantomime voice to share their wisdom?

 

[Phil E]

What I would do in that situation is not necessarily the same as what I would give as an answer to the question.

If you asked me "What would I do?", the answer would be, I would call "use-it" and if they didn't use it within 5 seconds, I would order a scrum, and give the throw-in to Team B.

That's exactly what I would do as well............whichever answer that is??

 

[Dickie E]

That's exactly what I would do as well

So team B can give you the bird and still get the scrum feed?

 

[Ian_Cook]

Looks like all those who aren't playing cloak & dagger pick C. Issue closed & time to move on? Or do we need to ask the others in a pantomime voice to share their wisdom?

OK, so I'll start the ball rolling

Option C is what I would do

The OP question says

"Team A takes the ball into a maul. Team B "rips" the ball away from Team A within the maul."

Therefore,

Team A was in possession when the maul began

Team B was NOT in possession when the maul began


So...

[LAWS]Law 17.6 (b) A maul ends unsuccessfully if the ball becomes unplayable or collapses (not as a result of
foul play) and a scrum is ordered

Law 17.6 (c) Scrum following maul. The ball is thrown in by the team not in possession when the maul began. If the referee cannot decide which team had possession, the team moving forward before the maul stopped throws in the ball. If neither team was moving forward, the attacking team throws in the ball.
[/LAWS]

However, in 2014 a contradiction was intruduced (surprise, surprise!!)

[LAWS]Law 17.6 (g) If the ball carrier in a maul goes to ground, including being on one or both knees or sitting, the referee orders a scrum unless the ball is immediately available.

When the ball is available to be played the referee will call “Use it!” after which the ball must be played within five seconds. If the ball is not played within five seconds the referee will award a scrum and the team not in possession of the ball is awarded the throw-in.[/LAWS]

So, D) is correct under Law 17.6 (g)

The problem here is that the original Law says the team in possession when the maul began will lose possession at the subsequent scrum throw-in, while the later Law says that the team in possession in the maul will lose possession at the scrum throw-in. They will not always be the same team.

IMO, the contradiction in the additional Law is an oversight by WR (12 year old proof readers strike again!!) I am 100% certain that they did not intend to change the effect of Law 17.6 (c), otherwise they surely would have changed that too.

So to resolve this issue in a practical sense, IMO the referee, faced with contradicting Laws should take the fairer option. Equity trumps Law, especially in cases where the Law is ambiguous.

Which is more equitable?

#1. Rewarding the team that successfully contests and wins the ball in a maul, or

#2. Rewarding the team that loses possession of the ball in the maul

I chose #1. Team A had their chance and lost the ball, why should the referee give them a second bite of the cherry?

 

[menace]

You could equally say that team B had their chance....the ball was available, they were told to use it. But they chose to dick about and waste time. (For all intents and purposes I would say the maul was 'successfully' over so it's now up to B to do something. Yes I know 17.6 g is in the unsuccessful end to maul....I was just saying. Ball is there...maul is over)

It's a bit of a moot decision. The reality is that 99.999% of the time they are told to 'use it' - they bloody will.

 

[Camquin]

Because they will here the implied "or lose it"

Also Ian's comment on law proof reading is grossly unfair to 12 year olds.

Camquin