Should it still be a card if a try is scored?

Dave Elliott

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Messages
215
Post Likes
34
Current Referee grade:
Level 9
You see this a lot on TV games, “ next penalty and it will be a card” there is a pen advantage but team scores, so no card given.

on the Wales v Scotland game, Sir Nigel Owens says this happens a lot, but he does not agree with it.

what do you do on a Saturday, would you follow this same idea?
 

Zebra1922


Referees in Scotland
Joined
Dec 20, 2017
Messages
688
Post Likes
207
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
I wouldn’t give a yellow card in this situation unless the offence itself warranted a YC. I understand the point being made, but in this circumstance I believe I try is sufficient punishment, and as they benefitted from the advantage technically I have not given a penalty so there is no need to YC for repeat offending.

I know it’s a convoluted argument but it’s how it’s normally refereed and I’ve got no problem with it.
 

BikingBud


Referees in England
Joined
Oct 8, 2011
Messages
285
Post Likes
33
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
I wouldn’t give a yellow card in this situation unless the offence itself warranted a YC. I understand the point being made, but in this circumstance I believe I try is sufficient punishment, and as they benefitted from the advantage technically I have not given a penalty so there is no need to YC for repeat offending.

I know it’s a convoluted argument but it’s how it’s normally refereed and I’ve got no problem with it.
Wasn't this a drop goal? And Scotland were already down to 14? So the situation was not quite as clear cut as seven points and/or first card.

I felt it was a poor decision by Biggar as pushing for the try when Scotland already had one in the bin, would likely have achieved the try or further penalties.

The decision from Bigger, to take the DG took it away from the referee, it didn't give Wales >7 point lead nor further numerical advantage and Scotland had ample time, 10 mins, to grab a winning try. I think Wales were lucky.

We might be back to trying to define what advantage really is? Taking a pop at a DG not expecting it to go over can be costly.
 
Last edited:

Jarrod Burton


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
644
Post Likes
144
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
I think if you paint yourself into a corner with the "next one goes in the bin" and then you don't do it (regardless of whether the opposition score or not) you lose all credibility. If you are going to plant your flag as a ref and make the statement, then follow it up.
 

SimonSmith


Referees in Australia
Staff member
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
8,894
Post Likes
989
You see this a lot on TV games, “ next penalty and it will be a card” there is a pen advantage but team scores, so no card given.

on the Wales v Scotland game, Sir Nigel Owens says this happens a lot, but he does not agree with it.

what do you do on a Saturday, would you follow this same idea?
Nigel is rapidly turning into "it was better in my day" Kaplan-esque
 

Dickie E


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
13,418
Post Likes
1,663
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
this is a good question and I can't see any logical reason why a card-worthy penalty doesn't result in a card even if a score is made or even "advantage over". But, foul play aside, it is not standard practice.
 

Jarrod Burton


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
644
Post Likes
144
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
this is a good question and I can't see any logical reason why a card-worthy penalty doesn't result in a card even if a score is made or even "advantage over". But, foul play aside, it is not standard practice.
@Dickie E , did you discuss the period of play during advantage during your L2 course? By that I mean that you are coming back for a PK anyway so extended periods of advantage, especially around foul play, were definitely not the preference of the two assessors/trainers we had - Coops and the guy who was the National Officials Manager but I can't remember his name, went to the states for a coaching gig. I remember it was a polarising topic at the time. The message we got was - "if its not going anywhere, they aren't 5-10m from the line or have an overlap, blow it up, get the kick taken and get on with the match"
 

Dickie E


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
13,418
Post Likes
1,663
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
Jarrod, I don't disagree with you, but length of penalty advantage is not the point of this thread.

The question is: once the referee has decided that a cardable offence has occurred and that penalty advantage is over (either by a score or some other outcome), should he/she, at the next stoppage, card the offender? I cannot think of any logical reason why he/she would not
 

Marc Wakeham


Referees in Wales
Joined
Jan 5, 2018
Messages
2,426
Post Likes
601
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
But to the question. If an offence is, in the referee's opinion, "card worthy", whether or not a try is scored does not change that particular call for me.
 

Jz558


ELRA/Club Referee
Joined
Nov 8, 2018
Messages
314
Post Likes
86
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
I think if you paint yourself into a corner with the "next one goes in the bin" and then you don't do it (regardless of whether the opposition score or not) you lose all credibility. If you are going to plant your flag as a ref and make the statement, then follow it up.
In general I'd agree but would you really YC a defender who triggered an advantage call by stepping offside whilst defending the goal line and didnt prevent the try being scored?
 

Marc Wakeham


Referees in Wales
Joined
Jan 5, 2018
Messages
2,426
Post Likes
601
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
In general I'd agree but would you really YC a defender who triggered an advantage call by stepping offside whilst defending the goal line and didnt prevent the try being scored?
What are you giving the card for? Repeated offences by player or team? If so why not stay with your read. Are you giving it for a first offence offside 5 metres out? Ask yourself "is the offence worth a card?" The answer to that question is all you need.
 

Jz558


ELRA/Club Referee
Joined
Nov 8, 2018
Messages
314
Post Likes
86
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
What are you giving the card for? Repeated offences by player or team? If so why not stay with your read. Are you giving it for a first offence offside 5 metres out? Ask yourself "is the offence worth a card?" The answer to that question is all you need.
I wouldnt give a YC in this instance even if the team was on a warning for repeated offences. I was asking Jarrod as it appeared from the post I quoted that he would.
 

Phil E


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
15,492
Post Likes
1,789
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
It depends on so many factors, so there is no straight answer.

How many advantages have you called?
How many penalties have taken place prior to this?
Where were the other penalties on the field?
What have you said to the teams prior to this?
etc.
The list is endless.
All will have an influence on your decision.

The answer is "depends".
 

chbg


Referees in England
Joined
May 15, 2009
Messages
1,296
Solutions
1
Post Likes
292
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
“ next penalty and it will be a card” there is a pen advantage but team scores, so no card given.
Don't paint oneself into a corner.

And, is it not really meant "next penalty that prevents a score"? So say that!
 

Volun-selected


Referees in America
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
126
Post Likes
42
Location
United States
Current Referee grade:
Level 15 - 11
I find “this needs to stop now as I’m running out of options” gets the message over. Gives me some leeway.
 

Jarrod Burton


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
644
Post Likes
144
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
In general I'd agree but would you really YC a defender who triggered an advantage call by stepping offside whilst defending the goal line and didnt prevent the try being scored?
Did the players offside position change the decision making of the non-offending team? If I think they had an impact on the match by changing the attackers behaviour (and I'd stupidly painted myself into the corner with the OP statement) then yes, they will be gone. If the play was clearly going away from them and action of the player had no impact on the match then I wouldn't be bothering with the penalty anyway so no YC.
 

Jarrod Burton


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
644
Post Likes
144
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
I find “this needs to stop now as I’m running out of options” gets the message over. Gives me some leeway.
A much less prescriptive statement that most captains can interpret successfully.
 
Top