tackle or ruck?

[Browner]

Ref gets criticism from SA referees for this decision, but I thought he got it right, as one supporting player latched on and operated as Mr clear out support player.

http://www.sareferees.com/laws/view/2830750/

Thoughts?

 

[Taff]

After a quick squint I would say, tackle .. which became a ruck, but the ruck had ended.

 

[Ian_Cook]

I've been back and forth over the video, and I cannot see any point where a black and a white player "are on their feet, in physical contact, close around the ball on the ground".

The nearest I can get to it is this....

m

TP = Tackled player (his knee is grounded so the tackle has been made)

T = Tackler

TA = Tackle assist

AP1 is the first arriving player


The Black arriving player might be in physical contact with the tackler, but since the tackler is (by definition) not on his feet, he does not count for the purposes of forming a ruck.

A fraction of a second later...

...the Tackle Assist releases well before the Arriving Player can make contact with him. This was never anything other than a tackle. The conditions for a ruck were never met. Even so...

...the player who was eventually YC, treated it as a ruck and made every effort to get onside, stepping back to the goal line (further than he needed to go).

IMO, this was a completely incorrect call by the referee/AR. There was never any offside by White 11, who did everything correctly, within the Laws, and yet still got YC. Very hard done by.

Shoddy work by the officials concerned!

 

[Waspsfan]

How can you go back and forth through a video several times to reach a decision and then accuse the officials of shoddy work!

 

[Browner]

As the SH is about to remove the ball, what status is the blue player ahead of him? (To me it looks like he's engaged in clearing out a white jackle attemptee?)

If so then this looks like many/ most modern Rucks , and as such White (YCarded) looks like he's too quickly out of his blocks .

 

[Browner]

As the SH is about to remove the ball, what status is the blue player ahead of him? (To me it looks like he's engaged in clearing out a white jackle attemptee. oops, no he's not !! My bad.
Nevertheless this looks like many/ most modern Rucks , and as such White (YCarded) looks like he's too quickly out of his blocks .

If these situations where 'defenders don't contest' are to be considered as "offside doesn't exist" then would the game be better for it, or would it end up a complete mess ?

 

[TheBFG]

easy to analyse that in slo-mo, but I think most officials would have made that call

 

[Ian_Cook]

How can you go back and forth through a video several times to reach a decision and then accuse the officials of shoddy work!

easy to analyse that in slo-mo, but I think most officials would have made that call

I went back and forth through the video looking for a reason to make the referee RIGHT, not looking for a reason to make him wrong. I was trying to see if a momentary ruck had been formed, but I found that it was never even close.

There is a very big difference between simply missing something, and seeing something that isn't there (which is tantamount to making things up). Any referee can miss seeing an offside player, or missing seeing the actual moment of a ruck forming, but to think you have a ruck when no ruck ever formed is poor. If the referee follows the protocols for the sequence of actions at a tackle...

Tackler - Must release the tackled player then get up/roll away. (Call "TACKLE")
Tackled player - Must release / place or pass the ball and then get up/roll away.
Arriving players - Must come from their own side "through the gate" and stay on their feet.
Watch for Ruck formed -(call "RUCK")

....they should never make that mistake, because they should never get to "- Ruck formed".

This is the European Cup, very highest levels of the domestic game, and I expect the referees at the level to be the best. The PK might be fair enough if he genuinely thought it was a ruck, but the YC was well beyond the pale.

 

[Ian_Cook]

If these situations where 'defenders don't contest' are to be considered as "offside doesn't exist" then would the game be better for it, or would it end up a complete mess ?

Probably a complete mess. This is what the iRB tried to fix by creating the "offside at the tackle" Law in the ELVs back in 2008, but they found that it caused a lot more problems than it solved because in certain situations, i.e. a midfield line-break, it made it impossible for the defence to legally defend.

I can see teams in the future taking advantage of this, and deliberately not forming a ruck (and making it clear to the referee that this is what they are doing) in order to be able to leave defenders a few metres up-field. What is needed is for way for the ruck to be called earlier, perhaps a redefining of the ruck formation might be called for.

[LAWS]CURRENT DEFINITION
A ruck is a phase of play where one or more players from each team, who are on their feet, in physical contact, close around the ball on the ground. Open play has ended.[/LAWS]

PROPOSED DEFINITION
A ruck is a phase of play where one or more players from each team, who are on their feet, in close proximity to each other, close around the ball on the ground. A ruck is also formed when a player of either team puts their hands on the ball at a tackle.

Open play has ended.

And then a small alteration to 16.4 (b)

[LAWS]CURRENT LAW

16.4 OTHER RUCK OFFENCES
(b) Players must not handle the ball in a ruck except after a tackle if they are on their feet and have their hands on the ball before the ruck is formed.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

PROPOSED LAW

16.4 OTHER RUCK OFFENCES
(b) Players must not handle the ball in a ruck except after a tackle and before a ruck is otherwise formed, if they are on their feet and have their hands on the ball. This action creates a ruck.
Sanction: Penalty kick

This would delay the appearance of the offside line at the tackle from the moment the tackle is made to the moment that players arrived and/or the jackler got his hands on the ball. IMO, this might be enough to get past the difficulty where a midfield break makes defending impossible

 

[ChrisR]

The PK might be fair enough if he genuinely thought it was a ruck, but the YC was well beyond the pale.

I completely agree with this statement.

 

[ChrisR]

If these situations where 'defenders don't contest' are to be considered as "offside doesn't exist" then would the game be better for it, or would it end up a complete mess ?

This is a very good question, Browner. Right now the game (ie. the laws and the manner of officiating) favor the team in possession. The defending team that chooses not to contest at the tackle will have a numerical advantage in the next phase and, if this strategy is recognized by the referee, will be free to advance and get in the passing lanes or on top of the receivers. As in the video.

This can be a risky business, again, as in the video.

How will teams in possession counter the ploy? Firstly, commit fewer players to the tackle area. Secondly, get past the gain line by evasive running. Thirdly, faster recycle times. Fourthly, stay upright and form a maul. Lastly, and most important, offload in the tackle.

I see all of these things as being positive but they'll be a real challenge to players and coaches alike. Referees? They'll be tested as never before.

 

[tim White]

The PK might be fair enough if he genuinely thought it was a ruck, but the YC was well beyond the pale.

I completely agree with this statement.

I don't; If it was a PK (I'm still not sure) then why on earth not a YC that close to the goal line for what was perceived as cynical encroaching?

 

[Crucial]

The easiest fix is for the ref to clearly call when a ruck forms and set expectations from there. If he gets the call wrong because of the split second timings and actions at least the players are aware of the situation he has then moved on to. ie if the ruck call is made players need to be onside and don't have to guess what the ref is thinking. Everyone is on the same page (right or wrong).

 

[Taff]

The easiest fix is for the ref to clearly call when a ruck forms and set expectations from there. .. ie if the ruck call is made players need to be onside and don't have to guess what the ref is thinking. Everyone is on the same page (right or wrong).

Good point.

So it may be the wrong page - but at least it's the same page.

 

[Browner]

The easiest fix is for the ref to clearly call when a ruck forms and set expectations from there. If he gets the call wrong because of the split second timings and actions at least the players are aware of the situation he has then moved on to. ie if the ruck call is made players need to be onside and don't have to guess what the ref is thinking. Everyone is on the same page (right or wrong).

Whilst I get your suggestion,

If 'slide rule' permanent ref commentary is required on all these (and other) aspects of the game , then I'll be saddened, and likely retiring my whistle before my voice box collapses.

 

[Crucial]

Good point.

So it may be the wrong page - but at least it's the same page.

And in reality that's what players want. The players can reinforce that point in interviews to fans and media and pressure comes off the ref post game.

At most levels you will find that players are very accepting of 'wrong' decisions if they are consistent or communicated before they escalate into a larger offence. If you learn early in a game what the refs view on when a ruck is formed, or how big the gate is etc etc you all just crack on and play the game.

I'm a bit confused with the proposed Law change earlier in the thread. Would that mean that the jackler would have to stop competing as soon as an opposition player was in proximity?

 

[Crucial]

Whilst I get your suggestion,

If 'slide rule' permanent ref commentary is required on all these (and other) aspects of the game , then I'll be saddened, and likely retiring my whistle before my voice box collapses.

Not asking for a commentary, just a simple call on the one key aspect of the game where everyone is wondering what the ref is thinking. Surely your job becomes easier if players aren't second guessing you at a ruck/tackle/maul. That's just good game management

 

[Browner]

Not asking for a commentary, just a simple call on the one key aspect of the game where everyone is wondering what the ref is thinking. Surely your job becomes easier if players aren't second guessing you at a ruck/tackle/maul. That's just good game management

Sounds simple. But its not one key aspect, there are a host of key aspects all increasingly needing slide rule examination, this is caused by the pro game forensically dissecting each facet and reinventing counter strategies

Some of these complications were unthinkable only a few years ago:
- uncontested lineouts & the obstruction issues
- screen runners blocking off potential defenders
- taking the space
- releasing whilst on your feet when assisting a 'one knee hair down' BC
- knee dropping to gain tackler rights to fahead of 'assist' responsibilities
- ruck collapses saddle rolling & ball rights thereafter if ruck or if not ruck
- tackle assist directional responsibilities & timings
- post ruck formation handling rights for hands on before ruck and subsequent maul formation timings
- obstructing beyond tackle or if off feet or clearing out or not jackling

List clearly not exhaustive ....

Now add in uncontested rucks or uncontested tackle possessions , ........ And then bolt on... the referee to become a 'rugby by numbers' communicating orchestrator.

Someone try and reverse this highly complex trend and onus ... 'p l. e. a. s. e'

 

[ChrisR]

I don't; If it was a PK (I'm still not sure) then why on earth not a YC that close to the goal line for what was perceived as cynical encroaching?

"Cynical encroaching"?

How about "Realizing that no ruck had formed he was free to challenge the first receiver"?

 

[TheBFG]

This thread could have some legs!

Situation we see every match, white player tackles a red player, 2 red support runners arrive and "bridge over/" their tackled mate and yes they're supporting their own weight! (tackler has got up and left the area). The ball has been placed back and is between the feet of the 2 bridging players, SH arrives sorts his next runners and the white players spread out waiting to make the tackle.

At no point has there been a ruck, so we have no off-side lines, but yet white hold their defence lines until the SH lifts the ball???