Tibb's Match report and assessments Thread

Tibbs


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Blue/Red 2nd XV 65 (27) Multicoloured 2nd XV 0 (0)

First league game of my London career. My new local club, and a heady 4 mile trip to the ground. Looks like my days of 1.5 hour trips to games are over for a while!

B/R top of the league and unbeaten, M/C mid table. There was really only one side who was going to win this. First try went over 4 minutes in, and scores came at regular intervals during the match. Couple of incidents it would be good to get some opinions.

Had a referee coach come along to this match, and he was really excellent, gave me some really useful pointers on my game, especially around positioning, mostly at ruck and mauls, and also the usual exhortation - get fitter, fatty! (Though of course he was much more diplomatic about it than that...)

2 incidents of note.

First one, forward pass by B/R about 7m out from M/C's try line on a sweeping move, that was pretty much guaranteed a try, as it was a 3 on 1 move. Blew the whistle for the scrum, by which point the B/R winger was almost over the line, and the M/C defender swung a leg in a blatent attempt to trip. He missed, and so I reversed the scrum to M/C to a penalty to B/R. I told the winger in no uncertain terms that had he connected he would have played no further part in the game, but declined to YC him, as I felt a penalty 5m out and a bollocking was punishment enough. What would you have done?

2nd incident. 1/2 way through the 2nd half. M/C Loosehead was getting taken apart (legally) by the very competent B/R TH. He was getting quite aggravated, and it finally boiled over with some very minor handbags after a ruck. I called both captains over to give them the 'calm it down' chat, and the M/C LH decided to get my attention by slapping me quite hard on the back. I had a bit of a quandry then. Striking a referee, however it happens, is a straight red, right? I've given a couple of reds in my short career, and I knew they were red cards as soon as the incident happened. This one didn't feel like that, and the tone of the game just didn't warrant it. So I called the player over along with his captain, gave him a right going over, and YC'd him. I gave him another bollocking and told him to never, ever touch a referee during a game. He was good as gold after he came back on. Would you have RC'd him?

So aside from that not a bad game. Disallowed 3 tries, a driving maul where I could see that there was a defending hand underneath it, one where there was a kick through and the guy knocked it forward rather than getting it down, which I and one at the end when I was knackered and couldn't keep up with a big break and couldn't see whether the driving maul that formed got the ball down. I was particularly ashamed about missing the last one as the ref coach told me the guy got it down, I was just too far away to see it.

Still, next weekend off to help my dad fell a tree in his back garden, and back to it the week after!

Chris
 

Tibbs


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Re: Tibbs' Match report and assessments Thread

My first assessment - and I agree with it all - not fit enough and I'm certainly not a L10 referee at the moment.

Chris


Report Form

Name Chris Tibble Referee’s Level 10 Society London Date 5/1/08

Home Team Isleworthians 48 pts v Away Team Kilburn 2nds 5 pts

Description of the Match and its challenge for the Referee

Game Level____10___

Arranged at the last minute, uncontested scrums, no replacements, and limited levels of skills. Not a great challenge to referee. Chris tells me that this is his first game for 12 months after a series of injuries and he was not match fit and would have struggled with a more competitive game. Perhaps we could look at him again when he has got back into the swing of things.

Fitness was definitely an issue, he struggled to get into position for breakdowns and some of the tries. This game was not a competitive level 10 game, but was at the right level for Chris at the moment, I suggest easy games are more appropriate until Chris is fully fit.

Please outline up to three areas for improvement (using Key Components) and OFFER SOLUTIONS

Manage the tackle/ruck area.

You need to arrive earlier and make your requirements clear (as you did in the lineout), as we discussed try to be more specific in your calls, the exception proved the rule when you called a player by team and number to release, the ball was made available and a good try resulted.

Look out for players interfering with the scrum half. If in doubt look for intent, to make the ball available or kill it.


Scrums/Rucks/Mauls - Stop the backline encroaching

Look around more often, and be prepared to move away to give yourself a broader field of view.

Please list up to three of the referee’s strengths in this match

Managed safety issues firmly, picked up collapsing mauls early, and was very firm on high tackles.

Line out – maintained gaps,prevented interference and ensured non participating players stayed on side.

POTENTIAL (Please tick the appropriate box.)
This referee is capable of refereeing at the next level of game

This referee is correctly graded at this level

This referee would be more comfortable at a lower level game until match fit X


Please send a copy of this form direct to the Referee, and to his Society.
This should normally happen within 24 hours of the game. Email is acceptable.
 
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Gareth-Lee Smith


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Glad to see you back in the swing :)

I'd agree with both of your decisions that you felt were contentious. The slap on the back is a tough one indeed. It warranted a discouragement, but without seeing the guy's face/manner I'd struggle to be able to instantly fall upon the decision of a Red Card, per the idea of any RCs being instantly recognisable.
 

ex-lucy


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Tibs:
1st incident: agree
2nd incident: disagree. i may have said "pls dont do that again" and left it at that. But i am about 18 stone and a prop and rhino like skin ...
 

FlipFlop


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M/C Loosehead was getting taken apart (legally) by the very competent B/R TH.

but...

Arranged at the last minute, uncontested scrums, no replacements, and limited levels of skills.

I'm confused. If it's uncontested, how does the LH get taken apart?

P.S. You might want to edit your assessment and remove the team names.....
 

ExHookah


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Flips,

Look carefully. The report he posted is not from the match he was detailing. his account is from a match that was 65-0, the assessors report was on a 48-5 match.

I'll admit I did a double take on the scrums thing too.
 

FlipFlop


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I see now - just saw they were posted at teh same time, so assumed....

(Assume - making an ass out of U and me......):D
 

Tibbs


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Always like to put in an observational test...

Sorry guys - should have made that more clear.
 

Greg Collins


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Tibs:
1st incident: agree
2nd incident: disagree. i may have said "pls dont do that again" and left it at that. But i am about 18 stone and a prop and rhino like skin ...

ex-lucy: 2nd incident ... what if next weeks ref is an 18-year-old ten stone wet through ex winger in his second game with the whistle?
 

Emmet Murphy


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You either ignore it and interpret it as a friendly slap on the back or you send the guy off; I can't see any middle ground here - a YC is confusing because it implies that intentionally striking a referee can, in some circumstances, only get you a 10-minute rest.
 

Toby Warren


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You either ignore it and interpret it as a friendly slap on the back or you send the guy off; I can't see any middle ground here - a YC is confusing because it implies that intentionally striking a referee can, in some circumstances, only get you a 10-minute rest.

I am confussed not for the 1st time!

From what Tibb's describes I would probally go with the Ex Lucy view of this incident (also being how do we say it hmm larger currently at my 18st fighting weight!)

Not sure I agree that YC is not a suitable outcome, if we accept that somtimes a bollocking is enough and we accept that it is clearly a RC at other times why no middle ground?
 

SimonSmith


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I am confussed not for the 1st time!
Not sure I agree that YC is not a suitable outcome, if we accept that somtimes a bollocking is enough and we accept that it is clearly a RC at other times why no middle ground?

We sometimes accept that a bollocking or a YC is appropriate for verbal disagreements with the referee.

Hands on is a very different situation, and is almost a binary situation: it's a friendly gesture, ignore it and move on. OR it's unacceptable - in which case the only recourse is a Red.
 

Toby Warren


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OK what about negligent / reckless touching of a ref - i.e. aiming for somone else or if there is doubt whether he/she was aiming for you. There was a thread earlier on here about a prop who ran to the ref 2-3 and was binned.

I think times like this bollocking is not enough red is harsh hence the need to have yellow as a option (but I understand it most likley to be red or nothing)

As always others will have a different view!
 

SimonSmith


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By pulling a YC, you're saying that it's no worse than repeatedly going offside...

I don't care if he was aiming at someone else and got me - he shouldn't have been punching in the first place!
That defence is like saying "I'm sorry I shot that police officer, but I was actually aiming at that other gang member" - doesn't work in law and shouldn't work here.
 

Emmet Murphy


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Not sure I agree that YC is not a suitable outcome, if we accept that somtimes a bollocking is enough and we accept that it is clearly a RC at other times why no middle ground?

Simon is correct - there is a huge difference between a player verbally disagreeing / protesting and a player who resorts to physical contact to make his point.
 

Toby Warren


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By pulling a YC, you're saying that it's no worse than repeatedly going offside...

I don't care if he was aiming at someone else and got me - he shouldn't have been punching in the first place!
That defence is like saying "I'm sorry I shot that police officer, but I was actually aiming at that other gang member" - doesn't work in law and shouldn't work here.


Not just talking about punching here. - If you swing a punch you take your chances :biggrin: We all accept (I assume) that the level of contact that a player has to impart on a ref to get a RC is a lot lower than that he would have to place on an opponent. e.g. pushing and shoping between front rows open handed etc etc is at worse a yellow. If a player deliberately shoved me open handed straight red no doubts.

But not every situation is so cut and dry - why cut your options?

E.g. (real example) blue shoves red ref steps in (silly boy) blue shoves back with both hands one hand on red other hand half brushes pass ref cause ref to move slightly.

What do you call?

bollocking seems to lenient
Red too much
Hence why cut your options and rule out yellow.

In reality ref went for red only to be talked out if by oppo captain but that is a whole new debate.

Just not sure why you would want to limit the sanactions that you have - by having a YC option doesn't mean that they take away the red card in your pocket!
 

ex-lucy


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incident at the weekend in HC.
i think it was Glaws .. 5m scrum skewed, lucy up and 9 picked up at base and ran at the ref (positioned about 90%) and used ref as a blocker.
defensive 10 ran into ref and seemed to push him.
Ref didnt do anything ...
I find i can get in the way alot in current inclement weather conditions as i want to be close to break down ... i dont mind contact.
 

SimonSmith


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If you pull a YC, you're saying that the hands on the referee were in breach of law. It seems to me that either it's innocent, in which case let it go, or it's not.

If it isn't, he has to go. That simple. To my way of thinking, if you're going to penalize, then it's Red. By going yellow, you're saying that yes, he put hands on but it wasn't that bad.
Au contraire - it is ALWAYS that bad. If he stumbles and flails, then there's no penalty. A push, a shove, a fist, a foot, hell, even intimidation - Red.

Please don't allow YCs in to your thinking here - you can create a serious problem for other referees.
 

Toby Warren


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To my way of thinking, if you're going to penalize, then it's Red. By going yellow, you're saying that yes, he put hands on but it wasn't that bad.
Au contraire - it is ALWAYS that bad. If he stumbles and flails, then there's no penalty. A push, a shove, a fist, a foot, hell, even intimidation - Red.

---

So to be clear your view is if a pen it is red?

I agree 100% that vast majority are either red or nothing - but I can think a number of examples that this just isn't practical or realistic and ex Lucy has just detailed about 4!
 

tim White


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Question; What was the players intention when he 'struck you'? If you are certain it was aimed at you then the subsequent action is clear, if you are not certain then that course of action becomes simpler also. The consequences for the player can be severe so be absolutely certain you are correct if you send him off.:eek:
 
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