Tied to 1 country? Not any longer.....

[Ian_Cook]

Don't know why you reply to him, you two will never agree and neither of you will influence the other's view point - regardless of merit of the arguments.

I am not trying to convince him Toby; I know that is not possible. However, I refuse to allow his BS to go unchallenged.

As far is merit of arguments go, his have all the merit of a yapping dog.

 

[Browner]

Don't know why you reply to him, you two will never agree and neither of you will influence the other's view point - regardless of merit of the arguments.

You may have noticed I don't reply to him Toby, there is a mountain of dissatisfaction being written by journos of all nationalities about poaching/trafficking/coersing/profiting/exploiting/national switching/grooming in and around rugby over the last 20+ years. Its acknowledged by all that the ring fencing of talent is starting at an earlier age than ever. Everyone has been doing it to some extent and some nations are 'positioned' to benefit more than others. His attempts to demonize me is the easier option than to target all other writers.

Cook seems able to read and comment about any subject anywhere in the world he wishes, yet seems to think it if I do likewise it entitles him to engage in a unpalatable belittling style protected by his Moderator status which always gives him the last retort opportunity on RR. I'm aware of not dissimilar targetting at others. I'm just dissapointed other mods don't exert influence to curtail this style.

I've rechecked, and 'aligning with IC view' was never a pre-requisite of joining RR.com. Likewise neither do I expect mine to be shared by all or indeed anyone, its their perogative provided they refrain from acidic retort, which extends into shouting and swearing from IC more recently.

I prefer OBs style of vehemently disagreeing, he retains politeness.

Any Rugby refereeing issues at the mo?

 

[Rushforth]

I'm just dissapointed other mods don't exert influence to curtail this style.

I'm somewhat surprised that wordings such as "his [arguments] have all the merit of a yapping dog" could be considered a "style" not to be curtailed.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Browner's suggestion that the NZRU coerces children away from their parents to play rugby in New Zealand is a fecking lie and an insult to my country and its people. I will rail against these lies that Browner perpetrates and I WILL NOT allow them to go unchallenged.

You may have noticed I don't reply to him

I like to see a poster who knows his own limititions

 

[TNT88]

I wouldn't want to offend the entire nation of NZ. They might put an export tariff on Tui's and Canterbury gear.

 

[OB..]

I'm somewhat surprised that wordings such as "his [arguments] have all the merit of a yapping dog" could be considered a "style" not to be curtailed.

Pun intended, of course. :biggrin::clap:

 

[Ian_Cook]

I'm somewhat surprised that wordings such as "his [arguments] have all the merit of a yapping dog" could be considered a "style" not to be curtailed.

Its not about "style" its about "truth", or in his case, the lack of it.

 

[Toby Warren]

Its not about "style" its about "truth", or in his case, the lack of it.

No it's about opinion. Yours and his are miles apart. I know whose opinion I'm.closer too - and it's yours but I don't think your view is 'gospel' or THE truth. They are clearly truly held views - but still they are an opinion.

 

[Ian_Cook]

No it's about opinion. Yours and his are miles apart. I know whose opinion I'm.closer too - and it's yours but I don't think your view is 'gospel' or THE truth. They are clearly truly held views - but still they are an opinion.

The difference being though Toby, is that I back my opinions up with real research and actual facts, whereas Browner backs his opinions up with... err... his opinions, or the opinions of selected, second rate journalists.

 

[Rushforth]

The difference being though Toby, is that I back my opinions up with real research and actual facts, whereas Browner backs his opinions up with... err... his opinions, or the opinions of selected, second rate journalists.

And you support your opinions with vitriol.

http://www.voltaire.ox.ac.uk/www_vf/about_voltaire/didnt_say.pdf

 

[OB..]

The difference being though Toby, is that I back my opinions up with real research and actual facts, whereas Browner backs his opinions up with... err... his opinions, or the opinions of selected, second rate journalists.

And you support your opinions with vitriol.

http://www.voltaire.ox.ac.uk/www_vf/about_voltaire/didnt_say.pdf

Personally I'd much prefer it if we dispensed with this sort of exchange. It hardly sheds much light on anything substantive.

 

[Blackberry]

I relish the knowledge and wisdom we can pick up from this site so find vitriolic exchanges doubly unpleasant,they tend to ruin my time spent reading the forum. My solution some time back was to reach for the ignore button, and I continue to do so, can I recommend this to anyone else out there who is getting fed up. I t has definitely improved my experience of visiting the forums.

 

[Ian_Cook]

And you support your opinions with vitriol.

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/content.php?355-Debunking-the-poaching-myths

With facts!

 

[Toby Warren]

I'm a little conflicted on this.

I like your article Ian, well written and well constructed. Plenty in there I agree with but there are some key omissions.

However I am uncomfortable with opinion pieces being written for RR.com - I thought that you were going to write it as a forum post.

I personally think that if we have to move to opinion lead journalism (and no journalism doesn't have to be a rude word Watergate or MP's expenses anyone?) then surely this should be linked to refereeing our game?

 

[Ian_Cook]

RobLev

Would this close the loophole

8.9.1 Where the Player has been captured under Regulation 8.2 for a Union he
shall remain captured for such Union notwithstanding the Player’s
representation for the Olympic Sevens Team of a National Olympic
Committee in an Olympic Event;

For reference...

8.2 A Player who has played for the senior fifteen-a-side National
Representative Team or the next senior fifteen-a-side National
Representative Team or the senior National Representative Sevens Team
of a Union is not eligible to play for the senior fifteen-a-side National
Representative Team or the next senior fifteen-a-side National
Representative Team or the senior National Representative Sevens Team
of another Union.

 

[Browner]

But if you make national sides 'free' from national qualification criteria - or greatly reduced criteria then international rugby becomes 'club' sport.

http://rugbybanterpage.co.uk/severa...ould-switch-to-pacific-nations-for-world-cup/

any 'nation' drawing up a hit list wont be doing so alone, all others will inevitably follow suit ( to varying degrees) I can't get excited about the prospect irrespective of who benefits.

 

[RobLev]

RobLev

Would this close the loophole

8.9.1 Where the Player has been captured under Regulation 8.2 for a Union he
shall remain captured for such Union notwithstanding the Player’s
representation for the Olympic Sevens Team of a National Olympic
Committee in an Olympic Event;

For reference...

8.2 A Player who has played for the senior fifteen-a-side National
Representative Team or the next senior fifteen-a-side National
Representative Team or the senior National Representative Sevens Team
of a Union is not eligible to play for the senior fifteen-a-side National
Representative Team or the next senior fifteen-a-side National
Representative Team or the senior National Representative Sevens Team
of another Union.

Very quick response for the moment; Rule 41 of the Olympic Charter is where this all comes from. The effect of Rule 41 is to require the competitor to be (broadly) a national of the country s/he proposes to represent. If that changes, then the "athlete" is permitted to represent the new country in Olympic competition(s) after a 3 year layoff - but any further representation of the original country at international level, if allowed by the IRB, would restart the Olympic clock. The Byelaw refers to "continental or regional games or in world or regional championships recognised by the relevant IF", so tour games would arguably not cause this restart, but I wouldn't bet on it.

8.12 of the IRB Regs would need to be amended...

I don't think that this is a loophole as such (ie an unintended consequence) - it appears to be intended, to match Olympic Rule 41.

 

[MrQeu]

Well, it's being done. Not for Steffon Armitage, but for a lesser known player involving two lesser known unions.

Ignacio Martin (of Spain) will play for the US Eagles. He has American citizenship due to heritage (an American grandmother and therefore one of his parents). He played XV and Sevens for Spain for over 10 years. He loves rugby so much that he traveled to Fiji to learn and play Sevens during the off-season, working in a resort as computer technician, fitness coach or doing repairs here or there.

If you understand Spanish, here's the article in a Spanish rugby magazine.

Here's a fast translation I did.


Ignacio Martín, Seven Spanish international will be shifting the red of the Spain Lions for the white the United States Eagles wear. The new rules -linked to Olympian movement allows players with dual nationality and without playing during the last eighteen months to change national teams. Mike Friday -maximum responsible for US Sevens- could not miss one of the best players in the discipline and has offered him a scholarship to join the United States national team.

Many who know me or who have treated me closer have heard me say: "The Spanish rugby has what it deserves." Well, it's been again demonstrated. Whether the regulatory ignorance or not wanting to complicate life with 'special' players on and off the field, or by divine inspiration ... we have lost the best Spanish player of Seven. 'Iggy', as Nacho Martín is known, which has toured the world playing the Olympic sport professionally with the best teams and players of the planet, will not wear the shirt of Spain again. Why? Let's try to explain.

The Sevens World Series next year and provide direct qualifying spots for the Olympics of Río'2016. The top five finishers will get a direct ticket to Brazil and therefore the IRB has to adapt the rules of the competition to the requirements of the IOC. How does it affect us? Basically on two points: The first is that "assimilated" players -those who don't have dual nationality or Spanish passport- cannot represent Spain in the Olympic sport competitions. That is why Inchausti (Spanish VIIs coach) has removed from the list for the tournament in Kenya assimilated players as Rolls, Newton, Carter, Linklater ...

The second aspect is that players with dual nationality who have not represented a country in the last eighteen months may choose to change national teams. This is the case of Ignacio. The player has Spanish and American nationality and approximately spent ten months out of the national team since Delgado and Santos decided not to include him because of its 'special' status. And when I say 'special' I mean 'Iggy' is an outstanding player on the field but also a 'special' player out of him. With a very strong character and a very own way of understanding what rugby is -he has always been like that even with his teammates at the previous stage of Inchausti commanding the national team- that he found coaches who preferred not to deal with him- despite being the best player of Spain 7's- given the circumstances of the national team at the time of the season in the World Series that had already took us irrevocably to the loss of a Sevens Series spot.

The fact is that 'Iggy' disappeared calls for Spain and sly old fox Mike Friday -World Series champion with England coach and former Kenya who did a brilliant championship in the 2012-13 season before taking the Eagles command- has been very alert to the situation of the Spanish player. Both met during a tournament in Sri Lanka. One of the many Martin plays professionally around the world. After checking the possibility and player availability Friday offered him a full scholarship in USA borne by the United States Olympic Committee.

How did we learn about the plot? Ignorant to all this, Inchausti calls the player to make the team thas was going to get a ticket to Hong Kong in GPS Series played in Manchester and Bucharest. Tiki recovered almost the whole team that got us into the IRB circuit to try to get one of those two places that take us back to fight for the elite. This is when the player gets the answer: "Sorry, but I will play with USA".

The fact is that Spain has lost one of the best players in the history of this Olympic discipline. Draw your own conclusions but mine is that we are not to go wasting talent. In eight months or so, we will see one of us in the shirt of the 'Eagles' and maybe playing against us if they invite us to any Series, at least those that are played in Europe.

'Iggy' is a player that every coach, and when I say everything I mean the 80% of the teams in the World Series, would have on his team. It is a decisive player, strong, fast, agile, strong, ..., and will not play again with Spain.

As I said, we have what we deserve and now Martin will be the future he deserves. We have not known, wanted or been able to give it. Now he will represent USA in the Olympics. Good luck in your way.


Apart from the journalist opinions about the quality of the player himself, it's done. The very first transfer due to regulation 8 will happen with Ignacio Martin.