Tied to 1 country? Not any longer.....

didds

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" a turn of events that would prove highly embarrassing for England boss Stuart Lancaster"

How so? If SL wanted to pick him, he would have. the fact that he hasn't presumably means, for all the plaudits, for reasons of his own SL doesn't want Armitage in an England shirt. So why on earth would it be "hugely embarrasing"?


didds
 

MrQeu

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"Armitage, last capped by England in 2010, is a British passport holder but spent six years growing up in France and has been at Toulon for a further three since signing from London Irish in 2011, so the chances of gaining French citizenship would be strong"

IIRC when I asked about French citizenship/nationality last year, I was told that you need to live for at least the latest 5 years continuously in France to be able to start the paperwork (4 years if you have an university level French degree), taking the "démarches" about another year and a couple or three personal interviews where the level of knowledge on the language, the administrative rights and obligations and the integration inside the French community and job is a must. So, as per the Toulon team composition lacks of having many Frenchmen, I'd say he will have a tough time trying to convince the fonctionnaire that he is integrated within a francophone work environment. :biggrin:

Maybe he can be dealt with an fast track by means of naturalization by the government to make it faster.
 

TheBFG


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Wonder if we'll see SA pulled into the autumn int squads :chin:

He's is prob the best #7 in the NH at the moment, Eng would be stupid to ignore him, maybe there's no room for him in the team :wink:
 

4eyesbetter


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" a turn of events that would prove highly embarrassing for England boss Stuart Lancaster"

How so? If SL wanted to pick him, he would have. the fact that he hasn't presumably means, for all the plaudits, for reasons of his own SL doesn't want Armitage in an England shirt. So why on earth would it be "hugely embarrasing"?

Because it calls his judgement into question that the French (potentially) think he's of international quality and Lancaster doesn't, especially if it's for "reasons of his own", especially if Armitage then starts playing blinders.

Hypotheticals on top of hypotheticals it may be, but it's not complete bollocks.
 

Dixie


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Because it calls his judgement into question that the French (potentially) think he's of international quality and Lancaster doesn't,
I am sure Lancaster would be very clear in his mind that SA is of international quality - I wouldn't expect any reasonable rugby pundit to take a different view - but he's not the only one we have. SL will consider all the back-row players of international quality to be contenders, and then make his selection based upon factors such as skill, fitness, "fit" into the team's playing style, "fit" into the team's personnel make-up, plus the strategic impact on the England game as whole of a policy discouraging player flight to other countries. If the French make a different decision based on their different selection criteria, that reflects not one iota on Lancaster.
 

Browner

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What is the IRBs agenda in constantly eroding National representation? Nothing they do on this subject surprises me anymore.

Love to know which einstein proposed this rule...??
 

crossref


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browner - Steffon was born in Trinidad and Tobago, and I think he learned his rugby in France when he was a child.

I would have expected you - of all people to be campaigning for him to be
1) restricted to playing international rugby for T&T or
2) for France where he grew up and learned the game
 

Ian_Cook


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browner - Steffon was born in Trinidad and Tobago, and I think he learned his rugby in France when he was a child.

I would have expected you - of all people to be campaigning for him to be
1) restricted to playing international rugby for T&T or
2) for France where he grew up and learned the game

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A clear double standard from the man in the brown corner.
 

Ian_Cook


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What is the IRBs agenda in constantly eroding National representation? Nothing they do on this subject surprises me anymore.

Love to know which einstein proposed this rule...??

It was for Olympic qualification, because (presumably) something was needed to meet the Olympic Standard, that England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland must compete as Great Britain. Also, it had to meet the conditions of the Olympic Charter which holds that Nationals must be allowed to represent their country.

IMO, this business with Armitage would be a clear misuse of the regulation. The iRB need to move quickly to close the loophole so that it can only apply to sevens and only for the Olympic Games as intended.

ETA: Actually, there is no loophole as far as I can see

Explanatory Guidelines on the Implementation of Regulation 8 –
Olympic Eligibility
With the re-introduction of Rugby Sevens into the Olympic Games in Rio
in 2016 there are certain rules which participants must adhere to for
eligibility purposes. The Olympic Eligibility Regulations (8.6 to 8.16) have
been introduced to accommodate the Olympic Charter Rules
.
To assist in
the implementation of these Regulations, the following Guidelines have
been developed to address the specifics around Olympic Sevens eligibility
which differs from that of IRB eligibility requirements in that it is based
solely upon a nationality consideration alone. The two sets of rules have
been combined to achieve harmony between the objectives and
underlying philosophy of Regulation 8 and the requirements of the
Olympic Charter in the context of participation in Olympic Events. These
Explanatory Guidelines must be read in conjunction with the terms of
Regulation 8 and the Guidelines thereto.

1. Who is eligible to play Olympic Sevens?

Any Player who meets the eligibility criteria in 8.1 and holds the nationality
of the Union / country they wish to represent in the Olympic Games or
Olympic Qualification process (known as the “Olympic Events”). The
eligibility rules in the Olympic Charter together with the IRB eligibility rules
must be complied with by Players who participate in Olympic Events.

2. Must a Player have the passport of the Union / country he represents
in Olympic Sevens?

The nationality of the Union / country the Player wishes to represent in
Olympic Sevens is a requirement under the Olympic Charter and is
therefore necessary for participation in Olympic Events. Nationality is
ordinarily demonstrated by the Player holding the passport of the Union /
county they wish to represent. All matters relating to the determination of
the country which a Player may represent in the Olympic Games shall
ultimately be resolved by the IOC Executive Board.

3. Who will decide on Olympic Sevens eligibility?

Ordinarily, the assessment of whether a Player satisfies the eligibility
criteria in Regulation 8.1 and 8.6 will be straightforward. However, in all
cases where a Player who has been captured under Regulation 8.2 and
who holds the nationality of another Union / country and wishes to
participate in an Olympic Event(s) for the Union / country of which he is a
national, the Player may apply to the IRB to represent the National
Representative Sevens Team of that Union (or the Olympic Sevens Team
of an National Olympic Committee), and the case shall be determined in
the first place by the IRB Regulations Committee. In the event there are
other cases of uncertainty or there is the need for clarification a referral
may be made to the IRB Regulations Committee.

4. What is required to be submitted to the Regulations Committee?

Applications should be submitted to the IRB accompanied by all relevant
supporting documents by the Union (or in applicable cases where there is
no Union, the National Olympic Committee (“NOC”)) of the country the
Player wishes to represent in an Olympic Event. The application shall be
pre-notified to the Player’s Union (namely the Union who’s National
Representative Team the Player has previously represented. The Player’s
Union may make written submissions to the IRB Regulations Committee
or may be invited to do so.

5. Can a Player with dual nationality, or having IRB eligibility for one
Union but the nationality of another, represent both Unions /
countries in the same Olympic qualification process?

No. A Player may only represent one Union / country in the Olympic
Events. For example if a Player played for a Union in the Sevens World
Series in the year it was designated as an Olympic Event the Player could
not later in the same Sevens World Series play for another Union /
country even in circumstances where he was deemed eligibly by the
Regulations Committee to play for the second Union / country of which he
is a national. The principle of Regulation 8.2 applies equally to Olympic
Events, such that if a Player, having represented one Union / country in
an Olympic Event they may not represent another Union / country
thereafter.

6. Can a Player switch nationality?

Nationality is a matter which is governed by nation states. If a Player does
switch nationality the effect of this upon their Olympic eligibility would need
to be considered taking into account Regulation 8.6 to 8.16 and the
Olympic Charter Rules regarding eligibility which can be found
at
www.olympic.org. However, a Player who has represented one Union /
country in an Olympic Event(s) and who has changed their nationality or
acquired a new nationality may participate in Olympic Events to represent
their new Union / country provided that at least three (3) years have
passed since the Player last represented their former Union / country and
the approval of the International Olympic Committee, the relevant National
Olympic Committee(s) and the IRB is obtained.


7. How will the Olympic eligibility criteria be assessed?

In the early days of the Olympic participation the view has been taken by
the IRB that the Regulations Committee should assess all cases where a
Player who has already been captured for a Union under the one Union
only rule (Regulation 8.2) but wishes to subsequently play for another
Union / country for which s/he holds nationality in an Olympic Event.

8. Is there any stand-down period?

Yes. The Player will be required to observe and demonstrate a stand
down period of three (3) years between the time the Player last played for
his Union and the time the Player first represents the second Union, which
must be in an Olympic Event.
Played, shall mean when s/he played for
the senior, next senior or senior sevens National Representative Team of
that Union for which s/he is captured. The principles of Regulation 8.3
apply in any assessment of this provision.


9. What does ‘first represents’ mean?

It means the first occasion when the Player represents the second Union
in a Match, Tournament or Series of Matches – which must be in an
Olympic Event. The Player would not however, be permitted for example
to participate in pre-season Matches or so-called ‘friendly’ matches or
other Matches which are not Olympic Events representing the second
Union. Training with the team of the second Union is permitted but the
circumstances should not be such that it presents or implies to third
parties that the Player is part of the National Representative Sevens
Team or Olympic Sevens Team of the second Union / country.

10. How will the stand-down period be assessed?

The onus will be on the Player to demonstrate to the reasonable
satisfaction of the Regulations Committee the last occasion upon which
s/he played for their former Union and that they have not represented
such Union in the three year period before they represent their new Union
/ country in an Olympic Event.

11. Are these Olympic Guidelines to be read with the IRB Eligibility
Guidelines?

Yes, both sets of Guidelines should be read together.


12. What is the position for Unions who do not have a single NOC to
represent them?

Member Unions of the IRB are not necessarily recognised in their own
right with equivalent NOC’s, for example the British Olympic Association
(Team GB) is the NOC for Great Britain and therefore encapsulates the
IRB Unions of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland (represent
by the all-Ireland body of the IRFU). In such case, Players from the
underlying Unions would be eligible (where they comply with Regulation
8.1 and 8.6) to represent the Olympic Sevens Team of the NOC (if
selected) in relevant Olympic Events.

13. If a Player plays for a combined team in an Olympic Event does it
affect his eligibility in relation to the IRB?

If a Player plays for a combined team of a country in an Olympic Event
(e.g. Team GB) and he was previously not captured for a Union (under
Regulation 8.2) then the Player will be deemed to be captured for one of
the underlying Unions of the combined team of country he represented.
So in the case of Team GB it would mean that the Player would then be
free to play for one of England, Scotland, Wales and/or Ireland.If a Player plays for a combined team of a country in an Olympic Event
(e.g. Team GB) and he was previously was captured for a Union (under
Regulation 8.2) then the Player remains captured for such Union and their
participation in the combined team in the Olympic Event will not affect
their status.

14. Is there a right of appeal from the decision of the IRB Regulations
Yes. An Olympic Eligibility appeals committee has been established under
Regulation 2 to deal with any appeals of decisions by the IRB Regulations
Committee.

15 For the Olympic Games 2016 in Rio, do any special provisions
apply?

Rugby Sevens will enter the Olympic Games for the first time in 2016. The
qualification process has been established and all persons eligible to
participate must have qualified by 11 July 2016. In terms of eligibility, the
three (3) year stand-down period applies. However, given the timing of the
clarification of the qualification process and the constitutional review of the
eligibility requirements for Olympic Events a shorter stand-down period in
respect only of the Olympic Games 2016 shall apply. In this regard any
Player who wishes to represent a Union / country for whom s/he holds the
nationality and has previously been captured for another Union may do so
provided the Player stands down from their current Union at least 18
months before representing the Second Union in an Olympic Event in the
Rio Olympic Games cycle.


Upshot: Steffon Armitage could only play for France in the Olympic Sevens.

He would not be able to play for them in in 15s or the Sevens World Series.
 
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didds

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Love to know which einstein proposed this rule...??

Reading between the lines it seesm to me that this is an inintended consequence of a couple of otherwise unrelated rules that combined open a back door.

i'm not sure why playing 7s for a nation opens the door to a XVs shirt when a XV sshirt has been worn for another country but that's in effect the crux of it it seems.

the 7s shirt thing is included now die to some IoC requirement? Again, not sure why but that is the cracking of the door.

didds
 

didds

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Ah.. thanks fro that Ian... so is the nuance that (B&I lions aside?) as there is no GB Union team so all bets are off for the Olympics 7s... thus resetting the clock almost?

Surely all the IRBV has to say is that they do not recognise Olympics selection as valid in any other criteria. (I accept this potentially creates silly situations in otherways!)

didds
 

RobLev

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It was for Olympic qualification, because (presumably) something was needed to meet the Olympic Standard, that England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland must compete as Great Britain. Also, it had to meet the conditions of the Olympic Charter which holds that Nationals must be allowed to represent their country.

IMO, this business with Armitage would be a clear misuse of the regulation. The iRB need to move quickly to close the loophole so that it can only apply to sevens and only for the Olympic Games as intended.

ETA: Actually, there is no loophole as far as I can see

...

Upshot: Steffon Armitage could only play for France in the Olympic Sevens.

He would not be able to play for them in in 15s or the Sevens World Series.

You're quoting from the Explanatory Notes (and I agree your view of them) but Regulation 8.12 is the issue:

[LAWS]Once the Player has represented the Union of which he is a national, in an Olympic Event, he shall thereafter be tied to that Union for all forms of the Game and in all events.[/LAWS]

I at first thought that this was intended to ensure that someone whose first representative match is an Olympics event is captured for that Union for all purposes - not to provide a means of breaking previous captures; but I now believe it should be read in that latter sense, particularly when read with Regulation 8.7.2:

[LAWS]8.7 A Player who is a national of the country or Union for which he has been captured under Regulation 8.2 and who holds the nationality of another country or Union, may apply to participate in an Olympic Event to represent his new country or Union subject to the following conditions;

...

8.7.2 The Player will be required to observe and demonstrate a stand down period of at least 3 years since the time the Player last represented their former Union and the time the Player first plays for the second Union or country, which must be in an Olympic Event. The Player may not represent the second Union in any other form of the Game until after they have participated in such Olympic Event.[/LAWS]

The 2014-15 Sevens World Series is an Olympic Event for the purposes of the Regulations (see Schedule 2 to Regulation 9).

There would be no necessity for the emboldened wording unless playing in an Olympic Event for the new Union broke the capture to the old Union. The upshot is that the loophole does exist.
 
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crossref


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it's all very confused though because
Once the Player has represented the Union of which he is a national, in an Olympic Event, he shall thereafter be tied to that Union for all forms of the Game and in all events.

there is no Union of which his a national. As he is a national of the UK and there is no UK Rugby Union.
 

didds

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But when he plays for france he will be bound to france.

didds
 

Ian_Cook


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You're quoting from the Explanatory Notes (and I agree your view of them) but Regulation 8.12 is the issue:

[LAWS]Once the Player has represented the Union of which he is a national, in an Olympic Event, he shall thereafter be tied to that Union for all forms of the Game and in all events.[/LAWS]

I at first thought that this was intended to ensure that someone whose first representative match is an Olympics event is captured for that Union for all purposes - not to provide a means of breaking previous captures; but I now believe it should be read in that latter sense, particularly when read with Regulation 8.7.2:

[LAWS]8.7 A Player who is a national of the country or Union for which he has been captured under Regulation 8.2 and who holds the nationality of another country or Union, may apply to participate in an Olympic Event to represent his new country or Union subject to the following conditions;

...

8.7.2 The Player will be required to observe and demonstrate a stand down period of at least 3 years since the time the Player last represented their former Union and the time the Player first plays for the second Union or country, which must be in an Olympic Event. The Player may not represent the second Union in any other form of the Game until after they have participated in such Olympic Event.[/LAWS]

The 2014-15 Sevens World Series is an Olympic Event for the purposes of the Regulations (see Schedule 2 to Regulation 9).

There would be no necessity for the emboldened wording unless playing in an Olympic Event for the new Union broke the capture to the old Union. The upshot is that the loophole does exist.


I agree there is a loophole, but its hardly one that will have players flooding to exploit.

No test rugby for three years
After that they would have to wait until an Olympic qualifying event

The timing would have to be right, and a player could have to stand down for as long as seven years playing for their new union. AIUI, while the 2014/15 World Series is a qualifying event, the 15/16. 16/17, and 17/18 event are not, so, for example, a player who last played for this current national team in late 2012 would not be able to represent a new union until 2019 because the first available Olympic Qualifying event will be the 2018/19 iRB World Series.
 

OB..


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I agree there is a loophole, but its hardly one that will have players flooding to exploit.
True, but it is not a good idea to have a loophole at all.
 

RobLev

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it's all very confused though because

Once the Player has represented the Union of which he is a national, in an Olympic Event, he shall thereafter be tied to that Union for all forms of the Game and in all events.

there is no Union of which his a national. As he is a national of the UK and there is no UK Rugby Union.

Regulation 8.9 means that players captured by one of the Home Unions can play for GB in the Olympics, but remain captured by that Union - it deals with discrepancies between organisation for the Olympics (by nations) and for other IRB purposes (by Union):

[LAWS]8.9 A Player who is eligible or captured for a Union that cannot participate in an Olympic Event because there is no National Olympic Committee solely for the territory of such Union, may, subject to the Olympic eligibility criteria (in Regulation 8.6 to 8.13), be eligible to play for the Olympic Sevens Team of a National Olympic Committee of which he is a national, provided that such team is not associated with any one single Union. In such circumstances the following provisions shall apply;

8.9.1 Where the Player has been captured under Regulation 8.2 for a Union he shall remain captured for such Union notwithstanding the Player’s representation for the Olympic Sevens Team of a National Olympic Committee in an Olympic Event;

8.9.2 Where the Player has not previously been captured under Regulation 8.2 and he represents the Olympic Sevens Team of a National Olympic Committee in an Olympic Event he will be deemed to be captured for one of the underlying Unions which support the Olympic Sevens Team of the relevant National Olympic Committee, and the Player must elect which of those underlying Unions he shall be captured by for the purposes of Regulation 8.[/LAWS]

OTOH, if he acquires French nationality and plays for France in the Olympics (relying on 8.7), he then becomes captured for France under the Regulation (8.12) you quote above.
 

RobLev

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I agree there is a loophole, but its hardly one that will have players flooding to exploit.

No test rugby for three years
After that they would have to wait until an Olympic qualifying event

The timing would have to be right, and a player could have to stand down for as long as seven years playing for their new union. AIUI, while the 2014/15 World Series is a qualifying event, the 15/16. 16/17, and 17/18 event are not, so, for example, a player who last played for this current national team in late 2012 would not be able to represent a new union until 2019 because the first available Olympic Qualifying event will be the 2018/19 iRB World Series.

All agreed - but we're discussing this because the timing looks right for SA.
 

Ian_Cook


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it's all very confused though because


there is no Union of which his a national. As he is a national of the UK and there is no UK Rugby Union.

Regulation 8.9 means that players captured by one of the Home Unions can play for GB in the Olympics, but remain captured by that Union - it deals with discrepancies between organisation for the Olympics (by nations) and for other IRB purposes (by Union):

[LAWS]8.9 A Player who is eligible or captured for a Union that cannot participate in an Olympic Event because there is no National Olympic Committee solely for the territory of such Union, may, subject to the Olympic eligibility criteria (in Regulation 8.6 to 8.13), be eligible to play for the Olympic Sevens Team of a National Olympic Committee of which he is a national, provided that such team is not associated with any one single Union. In such circumstances the following provisions shall apply;

8.9.1 Where the Player has been captured under Regulation 8.2 for a Union he shall remain captured for such Union notwithstanding the Player’s representation for the Olympic Sevens Team of a National Olympic Committee in an Olympic Event;

8.9.2 Where the Player has not previously been captured under Regulation 8.2 and he represents the Olympic Sevens Team of a National Olympic Committee in an Olympic Event he will be deemed to be captured for one of the underlying Unions which support the Olympic Sevens Team of the relevant National Olympic Committee, and the Player must elect which of those underlying Unions he shall be captured by for the purposes of Regulation 8.[/LAWS]

OTOH, if he acquires French nationality and plays for France in the Olympics (relying on 8.7), he then becomes captured for France under the Regulation (8.12) you quote above.


Not quite RobLev. For what crossref is talking about, there is a specific exception.

13. If a Player plays for a combined team in an Olympic Event does it
affect his eligibility in relation to the IRB?

If a Player plays for a combined team of a country in an Olympic Event (e.g. Team GB) and he was previously not captured for a Union (under Regulation 8.2) then the Player will be deemed to be captured for one of the underlying Unions of the combined team of country he represented. So in the case of Team GB it would mean that the Player would then be free to play for one of England, Scotland, Wales and/or Ireland.If a Player plays for a combined team of a country in an Olympic Event (e.g. Team GB) and he was previously was captured for a Union (under Regulation 8.2) then the Player remains captured for such Union and their participation in the combined team in the Olympic Event will not affect their status.
 
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