Wales Vs France

[Account Deleted]

Wales final try.

Warbs stopped inches short and he pushes the ball (immediately) forward to the goal line.

Try or no try?

 

[irishref]

He didn't lost contact with the ball before it centimetred towards the whitewash. Fair call on my part.

But, can we open a few more can of worms on this game :tongue:

- - - Updated - - -

lost = lose!!

 

[WombleRef]

Was a try. Thought Rolland had a good game but his management of the Scrum was in my eyes poor. Surely if the scrum is collapsing the side that is going backwards is going to be at fault (usually the defensive prop's binding was wrong), yet it was seen as the attacking side time and again.

Also in the 1st Half he pinged Jenkins for his knee going on the ground yet this was caused by the French LH not having a long arm bind which made it unstable. Surely the French player should have been pinged there for incorrect binding that led to the unstable scrum.

Thought yellowing the Loose and Tight head achieved nothing and all he did was make the game a little fractious.

 

[The Fat]

Was a try. Thought Rolland had a good game but his management of the Scrum was in my eyes poor. Surely if the scrum is collapsing the side that is going backwards is going to be at fault (usually the defensive prop's binding was wrong), yet it was seen as the attacking side time and again.

Also in the 1st Half he pinged Jenkins for his knee going on the ground yet this was caused by the French LH not having a long arm bind which made it unstable. Surely the French player should have been pinged there for incorrect binding that led to the unstable scrum.

Thought yellowing the Loose and Tight head achieved nothing and all he did was make the game a little fractious.

Missed that one but saw the Adam Jones knee on the ground one.
Jones uses short bind when ref on other side of scrum but miraculously remembers how to lengthen the bind when ref moves to his side.

59th minute, Warburton wins a PK for French tackled player not releasing the ball however, replay clearly shows that Warburton first puts his left hand on the ground past the tackled player and leaves it there to support himself whilst he goes for the ball with his right hand.

Also thought that Warburton lost the ball as he tried to ground it for that try (one camera angle picked this up) although it could be argued that it went straight down and not forward. Thought he was short of the line and then rolled it forward. No try for me.

 

[Taff]

... Thought he was short of the line and then rolled it forward. No try for me.

IMO he twisted it forward, while still holding it.

Serious question, but is there a law against that?

 

[Ian_Cook]

Wales final try.

Warbs stopped inches short and he pushes the ball (immediately) forward to the goal line.

Try or no try?

Interesting one this

[LAWS]22.4 OTHER WAYS TO SCORE A TRY
(e) Tackled near the goal line. If a player is tackled near to the opponents’ goal line so that
this player can immediately reach out and ground the ball on or over the goal line, a try is
scored.[/LAWS]

...but does pushing the ball forward come under the heading of "reach out"? I don't think so, and the Tackle Law would seem to indicate that what he did was an infringement.


[LAWS]15.5 THE TACKLED PLAYER
(d) A tackled player may release the ball by pushing it along the ground in any direction except
forward, provided this is done immediately.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

IMO, it was technically no try and a PK!

Harsh perhaps, but fair!

 

[WombleRef]

Missed that one but saw the Adam Jones knee on the ground one.
Jones uses short bind when ref on other side of scrum but miraculously remembers how to lengthen the bind when ref moves to his side.

59th minute, Warburton wins a PK for French tackled player not releasing the ball however, replay clearly shows that Warburton first puts his left hand on the ground past the tackled player and leaves it there to support himself whilst he goes for the ball with his right hand.

Also thought that Warburton lost the ball as he tried to ground it for that try (one camera angle picked this up) although it could be argued that it went straight down and not forward. Thought he was short of the line and then rolled it forward. No try for me.

It may have been the Adam Jones one - my knowledge of International Rugby is extremely limited as I don't tend to get a chance to watch!
But surely because both are short binding - the defensive player gets the PK against?

 

[The Fat]

[LAWS]15.5 THE TACKLED PLAYER
(d) A tackled player may release the ball by pushing it along the ground in any direction except
forward, provided this is done immediately.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

This is the clincher for me.
If SW had lifted the ball and reached forward to place it on the line then it would have been a try. Ball on the ground and rolled/pushed forward brings 15.5(d) into play.

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

What about the French replacement prop 17wearing what looked like wooly gloves. Now I have been known to wear them myself but I'm a shameless ex back and can sort of get away with it but a prop? what's the game coming to and how could he face his fellow front row colleagues is beyond me!

 

[Browner]

Wales final try.

Warbs stopped inches short and he pushes the ball (immediately) forward to the goal line.

Try or no try?

If the TMO hails from Pontypandy ? then it was never going to be anything other than a try !!!!! . I have to say i quite enjoyed watching the froggies getting more and more frustrated by the officials ........ Paris karma me thinks.

 

[Browner]

I loved the picture of Mas with a painted blue face, surprised on the colour though as thought a red face would have more apt for his sides performance. If Baskerville is an international centre then I'm the king of siam

 

[Toby Warren]

Interesting one this

[LAWS]22.4 OTHER WAYS TO SCORE A TRY
(e) Tackled near the goal line. If a player is tackled near to the opponents’ goal line so that
this player can immediately reach out and ground the ball on or over the goal line, a try is
scored.[/LAWS]

...but does pushing the ball forward come under the heading of "reach out"? I don't think so, and the Tackle Law would seem to indicate that what he did was an infringement.


[LAWS]15.5 THE TACKLED PLAYER
(d) A tackled player may release the ball by pushing it along the ground in any direction except
forward, provided this is done immediately.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

IMO, it was technically no try and a PK!

Harsh perhaps, but fair!

But he didn't release it as per the law.

I feel a ruling is needed on this one.

 

[Ian_Cook]

But he didn't release it as per the law.

Toby. Release does not just mean let go of the ball. There are a few ways the ball can be released and whichever one he chooses must be done immediately

1. By letting go of it -15.5 (b)
2. By passing it - 15.5(b)
3. By placing it on the ground in any direction - 15.5 (c)
4. By pushing it along the ground in any direction except forwards - 15.5 (d)

When an opponent legally has his hands on the ball his options 2, 3 and 4 disappear, an he is left onlt with Option 1 - Law 15.5 (e)

[LAWS](e) If opposition players who are on their feet attempt to play the ball, the tackled player must release the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

Law 22.4 specifically says that a player tackled near the goal line can reach out to ground the ball, and in doing so, this Law is making it clear that he is still entitled to exercise his option to place the ball in any direction - Law 15.5 (c) - even if he places it over the goal line.

(c) A tackled player may release the ball by putting it on the ground in any direction, provided this is done immediately.
Sanction: Penalty kick

However, while he can also push the ball he is prohibited from pushing the ball forward - Law 15.5 (d)

 

[leaguerefaus]

You actually think it was meant to be interpreted like that Ian? Seems ridiculous.

 

[The Fat]

You actually think it was meant to be interpreted like that Ian? Seems ridiculous.

Warburton pushed the ball along the ground in a forward direction. 15.5(d) specifically prohibits that action. Some may say it is unfair in this particular case because if Warburton had managed to lift the ball with his outstretched hand and then placed it on the line, it would have been a legitimate try but the law makers obviously see that pushing the ball forward in this situation is akin to a knock-on. The only argument that could be made to legitimise Warburton's try in relation to 15.5(d), would be if "pushing" the ball meant that the ball was not actually under and in constant contact with the player's hand i.e. the ball is loose on the ground and the player pushes from behind the ball to move it. That is going to require a pretty eagle eyed ref to make the distinction between the two actions.

 

[Waspsfan]

It makes my laugh when people talk about what 'the law makers thought' in reference to a super slow mo TMO decision! Not sure they would ever have envisaged that!

 

[Toby Warren]

Toby. Release does not just mean let go of the ball. There are a few ways the ball can be released and whichever one he chooses must be done immediately

1. By letting go of it -15.5 (b)
2. By passing it - 15.5(b)
3. By placing it on the ground in any direction - 15.5 (c)
4. By pushing it along the ground in any direction except forwards - 15.5 (d)

When an opponent legally has his hands on the ball his options 2, 3 and 4 disappear, an he is left onlt with Option 1 - Law 15.5 (e)

[LAWS](e) If opposition players who are on their feet attempt to play the ball, the tackled player must release the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

Law 22.4 specifically says that a player tackled near the goal line can reach out to ground the ball, and in doing so, this Law is making it clear that he is still entitled to exercise his option to place the ball in any direction - Law 15.5 (c) - even if he places it over the goal line.

(c) A tackled player may release the ball by putting it on the ground in any direction, provided this is done immediately.
Sanction: Penalty kick

However, while he can also push the ball he is prohibited from pushing the ball forward - Law 15.5 (d)

I disagree with your view of what release means - however as you and the fat point out 15.5(d) seem to deal with this neatly.

 

[Account Deleted]

It makes my laugh when people talk about what 'the law makers thought' in reference to a super slow mo TMO decision! Not sure they would ever have envisaged that!

They are not. The intent of the law makers should be taken into account when ruling on law - that is when making the calls that a referee makes 100s of times in a game. That the TMO is often called in to assist does not change that. All he is doing is checking FACT.

As such the TMO should not rule on Clear and obvious. The mere fact that the ref has "gone upstairs" means it was not c & o to the referee. We use c & o because the ref has to make a call in a split second. The TMO has all the time in the world to get it right.

 

[Account Deleted]

Interesting one this

[LAWS]22.4 OTHER WAYS TO SCORE A TRY
(e) Tackled near the goal line. If a player is tackled near to the opponents’ goal line so that
this player can immediately reach out and ground the ball on or over the goal line, a try is
scored.[/LAWS]

...but does pushing the ball forward come under the heading of "reach out"? I don't think so, and the Tackle Law would seem to indicate that what he did was an infringement.


[LAWS]15.5 THE TACKLED PLAYER
(d) A tackled player may release the ball by pushing it along the ground in any direction except
forward, provided this is done immediately.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

IMO, it was technically no try and a PK!

Harsh perhaps, but fair!

I'm tending to agree with you, in my head at least, though my Welshness is swaying me to he placed it on the line immediately so TRY! So I can't be too objective on this. I'm not sure what the "correct" call is.

I'm happy that if I saw the same thing out in the sticks I would award the try if I did not have a TMO and replays to watch.

 

[Account Deleted]

Also in the 1st Half he pinged Jenkins for his knee going on the ground yet this was caused by the French LH not having a long arm bind which made it unstable. Surely the French player should have been pinged there for incorrect binding that led to the unstable scrum.

Thought yellowing the Loose and Tight head achieved nothing and all he did was make the game a little fractious.

But surely because both are short binding - the defensive player gets the PK against?

Really? Where does the law demand a "long bind?

c) Binding by loose head props. A loose head prop must bind on the opposing tight head
prop by placing the left arm inside the right arm of the tight head and gripping the tight
head prop’s jersey on the back or side. The loose head prop must not grip the chest, arm,
sleeve or collar of the opposition tight head prop. The loose head prop must not exert any
downward pressure.

Sanction: Penalty kick

(d) Binding by tight head props. A tight head prop must bind on the opposing loose head prop
by placing the right arm outside the left upper arm of the opposing loose head prop. The
tight head prop must grip the loose head prop’s jersey with the right hand only on the back
or side. The tight head prop must not grip the chest, arm, sleeve or collar of the opposition
loose head prop. The tight head prop must not exert any downward pressure.
Sanction: Penalty kick
(e) Both the loose head and tight