What was wrong with this Lineout decision for?

[breako]

Ireland V England 2014:

See:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3a-ftt8qvg

Time 1:40.
Why is the penalty a few inches off the 15M line. I would have thought it should be bang on the 15?

Thanks

 

[Rushforth]

Oh I thought you meant why the lineout at first. http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?signal_category=2 - ctrl-F barging.

Are the few inches material? I would have called him across back to the actual mark myself, but...

 

[Ian_Cook]

Interestingly, the try disallowed at 1:33 was ruled a knock on by White, even though the ball was clearly targeted and knocked back out of the hands of white by a green player.

 

[Dickie E]

Interestingly, the try disallowed at 1:33 was ruled a knock on by White, even though the ball was clearly targeted and knocked back out of the hands of white by a green player.

I don't see it that way. Ball contact was incidental in the tackle. Onus on ball carrier to maintain possession.

 

[The Fat]

I don't see it that way. Ball contact was incidental in the tackle. Onus on ball carrier to maintain possession.

Absolutely

 

[WinterMute]

Depending on what I would see in my games, being inboard and no replays, I'm thinking a try would probably have been scored if Green 6 did not give white a "scalp massage" allowing other defenders to arrive. Notwithstanding showboat rugby, at least PK to white

 

[breako]

Oh I thought you meant why the lineout at first. http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?signal_category=2 - ctrl-F barging.

Are the few inches material? I would have called him across back to the actual mark myself, but...

Are you sure? Who barged then?
Strictly speaking it is not the barging signal.

If anything, what number 1 white does is extremely dangerous and should be pinged. He steps into the landing path of POC.

 

[Rushforth]

Are you sure? Who barged then?
Strictly speaking it is not the barging signal.

I am not sure at all! Absolutely agreed that it is not 100% the barging signal but on watching other possible signals that remains my conclusion (that I remain unrsure of).

I tried to watch white 1 from your perspective, but it took me three views to see what you meant. Not saying I disagree with your view, just that it would have taken me 3 views as a neutral also. And even then I would not be sure!

 

[The Fat]

I am not sure at all! Absolutely agreed that it is not 100% the barging signal but on watching other possible signals that remains my conclusion (that I remain unrsure of).

I tried to watch white 1 from your perspective, but it took me three views to see what you meant. Not saying I disagree with your view, just that it would have taken me 3 views as a neutral also. And even then I would not be sure!

It is not a signal for barging.
The PK was for green jumping over the line of touch.
Joubert says, "Across the line".

 

[breako]

I agree with you. It is not clear but isn't that what good players do. Push the boundaries and get their team an advantage. Argument could be made a Green and a White player were both doing it here.

 

[breako]

Sorry if I am bit thick. But how clear and obvious is this?
Who is over stepping number 4 Green?

I am assuming the exact infringement is

19.4
(a) Before the ball has touched a player or the ground. A player must not overstep the line of touch. A player is offside if, before the ball has touched a player or the ground, that player oversteps the line of touch, unless doing so while jumping for the ball. The player must jump from that player’s side of the line of touch.

 

[Browner]

Sorry if I am bit thick. But how clear and obvious is this?
Who is over stepping number 4 Green?

I am assuming the exact infringement is

19.4
(a) Before the ball has touched a player or the ground. A player must not overstep the line of touch. A player is offside if, before the ball has touched a player or the ground, that player oversteps the line of touch, unless doing so while jumping for the ball. The player must jump from that player’s side of the line of touch.

I've watched the clip and can't see an offence by Ireland at this Lineout. Strange one, especially from CJ positioning.

 

[RobLev]

Sorry if I am bit thick. But how clear and obvious is this?
Who is over stepping number 4 Green?

I am assuming the exact infringement is

19.4
(a) Before the ball has touched a player or the ground. A player must not overstep the line of touch. A player is offside if, before the ball has touched a player or the ground, that player oversteps the line of touch, unless doing so while jumping for the ball. The player must jump from that player’s side of the line of touch.

I'd agree with you it was Green #4. The fact that he got beyond the White lineout so that he brought his jumper down on one of the White lifters is probably what made it clear and obvious.

 

[Browner]

I'd agree with you it was Green #4. The fact that he got beyond the White lineout so that he brought his jumper down on one of the White lifters is probably what made it clear and obvious.

Law reference?

It looked like a bonafide competition for the ball to me, neither player was brought down on his feet

19.4(a) doesn't seem to apply

 

[RobLev]

Law reference?

It looked like a bonafide competition for the ball to me, neither player was brought down on his feet

19.4(a) doesn't seem to apply

Why ever not? He was there before the ball was caught.

 

[Browner]

Why ever not? He was there before the ball was caught.

Sorry Roblev but are we watching the same video clip? 1:48 = Lawes catches the ball , G4 isnt 'over' the LoT and therefore 19.4 doesnt apply as any crossing is after the catch.

As an aside , even if he then does - its less than Marler does .


PS... Is that AR/TJ position normal at a throw?

 

[RobLev]

Sorry Roblev but are we watching the same video clip? 1:48 = Lawes catches the ball , G4 isnt 'over' the LoT and therefore 19.4 doesnt apply as any crossing is after the catch.

As an aside , even if he then does - its less than Marler does .


PS... Is that AR/TJ position normal at a throw?

G4 is over the line by 1:47, before the ball is caught.

Marler's having the Irish jumper brought down on his head, which prompts him to move away.

One point; the camera is looking obliquely across the field, from a point "behind" the English lineout. Allow for that when rewatching the clip.

 

[Browner]

G4 is over the line by 1:47, before the ball is caught.

Marler's having the Irish jumper brought down on his head, which prompts him to move away.

.

Ignoring Eng no3's 1st offence!, if that was CJs decision? ( i doubt, more likely PoC landing position ) then those are smaller margins than I would ever operate to.

 

[The Fat]

PS... Is that AR/TJ position normal at a throw?

There's a lot going on in a skinny area behind the thrower. If RP has to move quickly to his left or right following the lineout, he will have to hurdle either the camera man or the physio/waterboys.

I'd be telling them all to FO to give the match officials clear space to carry out their duties safely.